How important is velocity? Topic

punkzip
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How important is velocity for a pticher? My feeling is not too important but I'm not very experienced.

Also, how important is the number of ptiches a pitcher has (assuming they are good quality).
8/7/2010 11:09 PM
strikeout26
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The importance of velocity is based on how much you value strikeouts. I am sure that most people would agree that it is better for starters to have atleast three quality pitches and relievers need to have atleast two quality pitches.
8/7/2010 11:25 PM
tecwrg
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Many owners look at velocity as a "tiebreaker" . . . when choosing between two pitchers who have similar ratings for control, splits, and pitches, select the one with the higher velocity.

I like strikeouts because they are outs made on balls not put in play.  Runners don't advance extra bases on strikeouts, they don't score from third on strikeouts, etc.  A strikeout can be a more efficient out defensively than a ground out or a fly out.

8/7/2010 11:43 PM
dedelman
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The problem with tec's analysis in HBD is that it's hard to strike out into a double play.  If the sim is behaving such that Ks do not take the place of errors but do take the place of DPs then the importance of Ks is lower in HBD than it is in MLB.  Since many experienced players view velocity as almost meaningless, my guess (not my certainty) is that the sim actually does behave in that way.

And I'd disagree with K26 about pitches-- I don't care about the third-best pitch at all, and I value the top two pitches far less than anyone else I know-- but that's an idiosyncratic position of mine, and K26 is right that most people would agree with him.
8/8/2010 12:11 AM
bigal888
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I don't even look at velocity when choosing a pitcher - but the other ratings better be good.  Bad velocity on a crappy pitcher just amplifies the suckiness.  As far as number of pitches and quality - if you have one or two good pitches (80+) then that should be good.  But if you have 5 pitches and 3 of them are terrible, you need a catcher with a great PC rating to counter that - which means the better pitches will in theory get thrown more.  In the actual sim engine, I don't think each pitch is called by the catcher per se, but instead each pitch rating is used as one of many factors in determining the outcome of each pitch - along with catcher PC.
8/8/2010 11:04 AM
apollo7
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Everything is relative.  Having 5 pitches can make up for having weak P1 and P2.  Having high velocity can improve a pitcher with lower control.  There are no absolutes, everything is a trade off. 

I'm also one of the rare players that place importance on a high gb/lf ratio.  I try to have great infield defense and a high gb/fb ratios on all my pitchers.  Combine that with a great catcher and I can make up for having very average pitchers in regards to splits and pitches.  (I throw my big money at massive hitting corner outfielders and 1b/DH, which are much easier to get). This is easier to do sometimes than trying to build a rotation full of aces...which are very, very hard to come by. (You either have to be lucky enough (or tank enough) to have a 1 or 2 draft pick, spend a fortune on an IFA, or give a max contract to a FA). 

Point being there are a million strategies to try to be successful and you need to find your own philosophy and actively build around that philosophy, not just try to gather a mish mash of great players, all with different styles/strengths.
8/8/2010 3:27 PM (edited)
plague
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People seem to think that Strikeout means out, what if not getting a strikeout meant the result became a Hit instead of a a out, DP, or a error.
8/9/2010 3:38 AM
carnivore
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Based on support responses and developers chats, my impression is that (all things equal) the more pitches a pitcher has, the better off he is, even if the extra pitches are objectively pretty crappy. For example, if you take otherwise identical pitchers where Pitcher A has four pitches and Pitcher B has the same 4 pitches plus a 5th pitch rated 25, over time Pitcher B should slightly outperform Pitcher A (assuming of course identical environments, etc.). The idea being that even a crappy 5th pitch gives the batter that much more to think about in the batter's box and effectively increases the value of the overall package. The developers do not seem to believe that having a crappy pitch in a pitcher's repertoire increases the likelyhood that it'll be thrown and hit hard.

I'm not advocating, judging or otherwise endorsing this approach. I'm just saying that that's what it seems like when listening attentively.
8/9/2010 5:09 AM
zbrent716
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Posted by carnivore on 8/9/2010 5:09:00 AM (view original):
Based on support responses and developers chats, my impression is that (all things equal) the more pitches a pitcher has, the better off he is, even if the extra pitches are objectively pretty crappy. For example, if you take otherwise identical pitchers where Pitcher A has four pitches and Pitcher B has the same 4 pitches plus a 5th pitch rated 25, over time Pitcher B should slightly outperform Pitcher A (assuming of course identical environments, etc.). The idea being that even a crappy 5th pitch gives the batter that much more to think about in the batter's box and effectively increases the value of the overall package. The developers do not seem to believe that having a crappy pitch in a pitcher's repertoire increases the likelyhood that it'll be thrown and hit hard.

I'm not advocating, judging or otherwise endorsing this approach. I'm just saying that that's what it seems like when listening attentively.
Based on my own support responses with the second level support guys, I have the opposite impression regarding pitches.

Of course, even with the second level responses I don't always (often?) really believe CS, but here are the crib notes from the extended back-and-forth I had.

____________

Message:
[Comparing these two players and why one was used rather than the other.]

Alex Smyth (LHP) - 92 control, 75 vLH, 68 vRH, 82 P1, 65 P2, 59 P3, 49 P4, 35 P5, 86 velocity, 51 GB/FB
Tommy McIntyre (LHP) - 87 control, 83 vLH, 65 vRH, 74 P1, 70 P2, 51 P3, 88 velocity, 35 GB/FB

Alex has better control, a significantly better first pitch, a better third pitch, 2 "extra" pitches, better effectiveness vs. RH (the hand of the batter at the plate) and a better GB/FB rating. The *only* things McIntyre is stronger at are P2 (70 vs 65) and velocity (88 vs 86). The P2 difference in favor of McIntyre is more than outweighed by the P1 and P3 differences in favor of Smyth (82 vs 74; 59 vs 51) and the fact that he has 2 additional pitches to go to. 

Response:

And the pitch grades. While one has more pitches, some of the lesser pitches are below average so they can serve as a negative.

My Message:

Interesting, what is the "average" rating of a ML pitch?

Response: 

50

A pitcher's repertoire evaluates the full set of pitches. Typically, having more pitches is better. The best pitches are always weighted more heavily. However, having a really awful pitch or a couple subpar pitches can be hurt a pitcher.

My Message:

Is the "35" pitch considered "really awful" or is this more of the latter case with "a couple subpar pitches"?

Response:

Multiple subpar pitches.


8/9/2010 5:27 AM
plague
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Posted by carnivore on 8/9/2010 5:09:00 AM (view original):
Based on support responses and developers chats, my impression is that (all things equal) the more pitches a pitcher has, the better off he is, even if the extra pitches are objectively pretty crappy. For example, if you take otherwise identical pitchers where Pitcher A has four pitches and Pitcher B has the same 4 pitches plus a 5th pitch rated 25, over time Pitcher B should slightly outperform Pitcher A (assuming of course identical environments, etc.). The idea being that even a crappy 5th pitch gives the batter that much more to think about in the batter's box and effectively increases the value of the overall package. The developers do not seem to believe that having a crappy pitch in a pitcher's repertoire increases the likelyhood that it'll be thrown and hit hard.

I'm not advocating, judging or otherwise endorsing this approach. I'm just saying that that's what it seems like when listening attentively.
I am pretty sure its in the dev chat somewhere, but I remember the answer was that extra pitches was more beneficial as long as it was 50 or higher.
8/9/2010 7:08 AM
nanu
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I generally prefer lower velocity.  Fewer home runs allowed.
8/9/2010 7:12 AM
bigal888
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I think every rating in HBD is considered a positive if it is above 50.  I envision the engine treating pitches as such.  Since this is an algorithm based game and every rating is really just a variable in that algorithm, I would bet all five pitches are taken into account somewhat like a weighted average (but probably a bit more complicated).  Let's say a guy has five pitches rated 80, 70, 50, 40, 30 and one guy has two pitches rated 70, 70.  The first guy would have a simplified "pitch rating" of (80+70+50+40+30)/5 = 64 while the second guy has a pitch rating of (70+70)/2 = 70.  In this case the guy with less pitches, even though they aren't great, is better than the guy with one good pitch, one average pitch and 3 below average pitches.   In the response to zbrent they even say that the best pitches are weighted more heavily - I have no idea how they weight them and guessing so would be purely speculative.  I would also assume that catcher's pitch calling is also taken into account somehow, in which it probably adds a larger factor to better pitches and a smaller factor to worse pitches.  Anyway, the point being, this game doesn't run like real life in which every pitch is chosen and there are a million factors that are taken into account at each pitch, one of which is pitch rating.
8/9/2010 7:19 AM
How important is velocity? Topic
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