Zone defense help(specifically fouls) Topic

grantduck
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The biggest question I have is why I'm giving up so many FT's in the zone defense. 

I used to run a press at D-II and so I never paid much notice to extra FT's.

With Zone I thought you were supposed to commit left fouls, but my guys are hacking like madmen.

Any way to commit less fouls? 

Looking through D-1, almost none of the top teams run a zone.  Is zone defense dead in the new engine?


1/6/2011 5:00 AM (edited)
zbrent716
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What sort of IQs are you working with?
1/6/2011 3:01 AM
grantduck
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Posted by zbrent716 on 1/6/2011 3:01:00 AM (view original):
What sort of IQs are you working with?
This particular season, a good deal of freshman on the bench unfortunately; however, the senior starters with A and A+ zone are committing a good # as well.  Th previous season I had almost all juniors/seniors with high IQs and was having similar problems.

I'm just deciding whether to stick with the zone or not.

With zone it seems I'm getting the worst of both worlds.  If anyone has had significant success at D-I with zone in the new engine, I'd appreciate some help.

My general thought process with zone was: recruit lots of rebounding(to compensate for it being a weaker rebounding defense, make sure I have at least 2-3 good defenders in DEF rating, to balance out the weaker ones).  I haven't noticed ANY decrease in the offensive rebounds I'm giving up, despite vastly improving the rebounding over the few years I've been at Portland.  That's pretty frustrating.

1/6/2011 4:57 AM (edited)
girt25
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grant, you have a very low end DI team, so in general I'd expect you to be on the wrong end of the foul situation. The only game where you really committed a ton of fouls was the opener vs. GW. If you look at your starters who are following a lot ... your stud sr guard barely fouls, while your weaker soph guard fouls plenty. You have a center playing sf, and he's fouling a lot. Then you have a frosh guard with D iq playing 16 mpg off the bench and he's fouling a lot, on a per minute basis.

And as much as anything, you've only played three games. So sample size is a pretty significant factor here. (Tutt is a good example. He averaged 2 fouls/game last season, and I'd expect him to return to that general area as time goes on.)
1/6/2011 12:01 PM
grantduck
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Posted by girt25 on 1/6/2011 12:01:00 PM (view original):
grant, you have a very low end DI team, so in general I'd expect you to be on the wrong end of the foul situation. The only game where you really committed a ton of fouls was the opener vs. GW. If you look at your starters who are following a lot ... your stud sr guard barely fouls, while your weaker soph guard fouls plenty. You have a center playing sf, and he's fouling a lot. Then you have a frosh guard with D iq playing 16 mpg off the bench and he's fouling a lot, on a per minute basis.

And as much as anything, you've only played three games. So sample size is a pretty significant factor here. (Tutt is a good example. He averaged 2 fouls/game last season, and I'd expect him to return to that general area as time goes on.)
It wasn't limited to this season.

The C playing SF has decent spd/ath for the SF spot.

The rebounding thing is also a major concern, because how I've tried to improve it through recruiting, yet I'm still getting out rebounded every game, even when I have a rebounding/ath edge in ratings.  It's making me want to scrap zone.
1/6/2011 5:11 PM (edited)
fd343ny
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one thing you can do is look at patterns of fouls outside the last few minutes of the game, to get rid of the effect of intentional fouls - could even look at first half stats, which are easier to pull - see how you stack up in first half stats and maybe narrow down the problem

1/6/2011 5:31 PM
grantduck
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Posted by fd343ny on 1/6/2011 5:31:00 PM (view original):

one thing you can do is look at patterns of fouls outside the last few minutes of the game, to get rid of the effect of intentional fouls - could even look at first half stats, which are easier to pull - see how you stack up in first half stats and maybe narrow down the problem

I will.

I think the bigger question is simply of zone is even viable in the new engine.  So few people run it at D-1, and I feel like the rebounding disadvantage seemingly cannot be compensated for by recruiting/having better rebounders/ath.
1/6/2011 6:08 PM
girt25
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Posted by grantduck on 1/6/2011 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 1/6/2011 12:01:00 PM (view original):
grant, you have a very low end DI team, so in general I'd expect you to be on the wrong end of the foul situation. The only game where you really committed a ton of fouls was the opener vs. GW. If you look at your starters who are following a lot ... your stud sr guard barely fouls, while your weaker soph guard fouls plenty. You have a center playing sf, and he's fouling a lot. Then you have a frosh guard with D iq playing 16 mpg off the bench and he's fouling a lot, on a per minute basis.

And as much as anything, you've only played three games. So sample size is a pretty significant factor here. (Tutt is a good example. He averaged 2 fouls/game last season, and I'd expect him to return to that general area as time goes on.)
It wasn't limited to this season.

The C playing SF has decent spd/ath for the SF spot.

The rebounding thing is also a major concern, because how I've tried to improve it through recruiting, yet I'm still getting out rebounded every game, even when I have a rebounding/ath edge in ratings.  It's making me want to scrap zone.
Take a look at your core players fouls/game this season vs. last season. They weren't fouling like this last season (except for the guys who aren't fouling a lot through the first three games; they're at their averages from last season).

As for rebounding, zone rebounds better now than it did in the old engine. Discrepancy used to be huge. But look at your team; you have one player above 84 in reb and only two above 80. That's low for DI. You'd be getting outrebounded playing a m2m defense as well. (And fwiw, zone also defends the 3 better in the new engine.) Your main issue here is talent.
1/7/2011 7:59 AM (edited)
oldresorter
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in a vacuum, I would say press rebounds the worst, and zone fouls the least, I also would say zone causes the least to's, and zone causes the least fatigue.

Unrelated, well sort of related, I had a team devastated by EE's such that my team had very low stamina, I am almost sure that playing vs FCP does wear your own team out, that is based on an eyeball test.  I thought that is how it used to work, but was changed, such that the opponents defense had no affect on your own fatigue .... but I am almost sure my team was significantly more tired out vs FCP opponents, and least tired out vs zone opponents.
1/6/2011 7:36 PM
girt25
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OR, I know that before the new engine, the type of defense your opponent played did not impact your fatigue. I had a lengthy chat with Admin about this and no doubt annoyed the crap out of him. Whether it's different now, I'm not sure.
1/6/2011 8:57 PM
grantduck
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Posted by girt25 on 1/6/2011 6:33:00 PM (view original):
Posted by grantduck on 1/6/2011 5:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 1/6/2011 12:01:00 PM (view original):
grant, you have a very low end DI team, so in general I'd expect you to be on the wrong end of the foul situation. The only game where you really committed a ton of fouls was the opener vs. GW. If you look at your starters who are following a lot ... your stud sr guard barely fouls, while your weaker soph guard fouls plenty. You have a center playing sf, and he's fouling a lot. Then you have a frosh guard with D iq playing 16 mpg off the bench and he's fouling a lot, on a per minute basis.

And as much as anything, you've only played three games. So sample size is a pretty significant factor here. (Tutt is a good example. He averaged 2 fouls/game last season, and I'd expect him to return to that general area as time goes on.)
It wasn't limited to this season.

The C playing SF has decent spd/ath for the SF spot.

The rebounding thing is also a major concern, because how I've tried to improve it through recruiting, yet I'm still getting out rebounded every game, even when I have a rebounding/ath edge in ratings.  It's making me want to scrap zone.
Take a look at your core players fouls/game this season vs. last season. They weren't fouling like this last season (except for the guys who aren't fouling a lot through the first three games; they're at their averages from last season).

As for rebounding, zone rebounds better now than it did in the old engine. Discrepancy used to be huge. But look at your team; you have one player above 84 in reb and only two above 80. That's low for DI. You'd be getting outrebounded playing a m2m defense as well. (And fwiw, one also defends the 3 better in the new engine.) Your main issue here is talent.
Thanks.  I intentionally took a team that I thought was the worst I could find in D-1 after having a top  tier D-II program I wanted to try something new. I've upped the talent level significantly over the 3 seasons, but I suppose it will just take a lot  more patience.
1/7/2011 1:21 AM
Zone defense help(specifically fouls) Topic
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