Fullcourt press question Topic

Does anyone know if the engine makes provisions to have the press also wear down the opponent? I see some teams playing guys 30-35 minutes vs a fullcourt press and there doesn't seem to be much reduction in their performance as the games go on. Not only should the fcp fatigue its own players, there should be a corresponding tiring of the offense playing against it. Any thoughts?
3/1/2011 9:06 AM
FCP fatigue needs some tweeking. It was too dominant in the past and HD went too far with the fatigue adjustments IMHO. However, it would probably be very unpopular to try to correct the fatigue. I really dont see any changes happening in this area.

I really think that they should post, "FCP is going to wear the defensive players out much faster than the offensive players", in the Hoops 101 so people know before they give it a try.
3/1/2011 11:04 AM
"FCP is going to wear the defensive players out much faster than the offensive players"

I'm not totally sure that's true, but even if it is, it should be true.  The offensive players aren't sprinting all over the floor trying to trap at all times.
3/1/2011 11:42 AM
FCP has always worn out the team implementing it more than their opponents  That said, before this latest tweak, FCP definitely wore down the opponents compared to M2M or Zone.  

Since fatigue in general has been reduced, the affect to opponents has been severely minimized and doesn't seem to be worth much.  A nine man team used to struggle against a 12 man press -- now they can handle it.

I wouldn't try to run the press without at least 11 players, still, though. 


3/1/2011 2:14 PM

I don't think the fatigue should be "corresponding" to the team with the ball. Theoretically, a team should be able to break the press and get the ball into the halfcourt with good passing, thus leaving the offensive team with a fatigue less than the trapping team. Additionally, as a game goes on, a team shouldn't necessarily be more fatigued because they've been trapped the entire game. Ideally, they would be able to adjust to the press as the game goes on. A team that traps, almost always traps the same way. A team's IQ of the press throughout a game should increase, and thus be able to break it easier, depending on the level of caliber of player in the game.

What I would like to see are some additions to the engine with respect to FCP in different styles of presses...i.e 1-2-1-1 or 2-2-1 or straight up man press. As well as add situational presses. For example, team has the ball inbounding at the far end of the court with 5 seconds left, have the option to press, or halfcourt-trap, or leave the inbounder open.

3/2/2011 11:09 AM
Posted by mburgy on 3/2/2011 11:09:00 AM (view original):

I don't think the fatigue should be "corresponding" to the team with the ball. Theoretically, a team should be able to break the press and get the ball into the halfcourt with good passing, thus leaving the offensive team with a fatigue less than the trapping team. Additionally, as a game goes on, a team shouldn't necessarily be more fatigued because they've been trapped the entire game. Ideally, they would be able to adjust to the press as the game goes on. A team that traps, almost always traps the same way. A team's IQ of the press throughout a game should increase, and thus be able to break it easier, depending on the level of caliber of player in the game.

What I would like to see are some additions to the engine with respect to FCP in different styles of presses...i.e 1-2-1-1 or 2-2-1 or straight up man press. As well as add situational presses. For example, team has the ball inbounding at the far end of the court with 5 seconds left, have the option to press, or halfcourt-trap, or leave the inbounder open.

Your first idea (players figuring out the press as the game goes) is logical in a real life perspective - but for the purposes of this game it would essentially render the press useless.  Who is going to run the press knowing that players are going to figure it out as they go?  You could make the same argument for man/zone... you'd have to somehow allow the players to "figure out" that the SF sucks at defense and to go to the player he's guarding more. 

Thinking about that idea more - that would make game planning much more meaningless as well.  This should all be "figured out" by the coach in his initial game plan - not corrected by the engine as the game goes.  If you put together a crappy game plan against a press squad, you shouldn't be let off the hook by your players adapting to the defense - your team should turn the ball over a lot because the coach didn't get it right when he was planning for the game.  Same with the zone... if they go 3-2 with a plus positioning and your game plan was to hoist up a bunch of 3's, you should shoot a low percentage.  The game shouldn't say "Well, yea... you WANTED to shoot a bunch of 3's, but it doesn't make sense against this defense so instead we're going to modify your game plan and pound it inside."

Your second idea can work to the extent of a press style, though that would still be a major change I'm sure as they'd have to rework how the press works (which, from reading the forums wouldn't be a terrible idea).  I guess they'd have to focus on certain abilities to get you past the different presses?  Maybe passing is more important in getting out of a 2-2-1 and BH is more important in getting past a 1-2-1-1 (just guessing off the top of my head).  But there would also have to be different risks for each of those styles (2-2-1 more vulnerable to FB points if broken quickly over the top?).

However, as you get down to that specific situational logic of "I want to do this if there's 10 seconds left and I'm winning by one possession and the other team is inbounding the ball under my basket... but if there's 5 seconds left and they're inbounding the ball on the sideline and the game is tied, well then I want to to THIS instead..." - it gets to the point where it's just impossible to program for every scenario.  And, if you did program for all of those scenarios, you're talking about bumping up the time it takes to process all of those decisions, which increases the time it takes for every single game to simulate.

I'd agree with the high level of adding styles to the press, but I just don't see how they could reasonably add in all of that situational logic while maintaining a realistic simulation schedule.

3/2/2011 11:24 AM
All of these threads on FCP and the changes since 2-3 have made me doubt myself.  My D3 Bethany team is sucking wind at 1-7 so far, running FCP/FB.  Mostly because I inherited a mediocre bunch of sim recruits and my first class of recruits are still freshmen.

I'm not just losing games, though I've had a couple of close ones.  I'm getting blown out of the gym by Sim teams because my players can't shoot and can't guard.  And now I'm concerned that FCP is going to be a dead-end defense, and I should gradually switch Bethany over to Man or HCP or some combination. 

I'm sure once I get a couple of recruiting classes on board things will improve, but I'm feeling very uncertain about the defensive scheme I inherited here.  I'm so tempted to go through the teething problems of making a system switch like I did with Abilene Christian but I cringe at the thought.  It's neither fun nor easy.
3/2/2011 6:02 PM
I dont think FCP is at a disadvantage now.  It was, I think, until the latest adjustments eased fatigue penalty etc. 

It is just one team, but for example, my Kentucky team in Phelan sucked eggs running the press last season, but this year got to the Sweet 16 with just one senior.  I think we no longer were getting punished as much for pressing.

On the other hand, WIS has said a few times that in the long term press will be moved from a defense by itself toward being an optional setting along with another defense.  So, I think it is wise to recruit and practice with that in the back of your mind. 

 

Also, press for sure sucks if you have a disastrous recruiting year and have say 3 or 4 walkons along with a couple weak players.  you just cant press with 6 or 7 guys who can play at your level,

So, I think it is wise to devote a few minutes of practice to man or zone - depending on your roster - so that you have a base of IQ in that scheme for either the day when press is no longer a standalone defense (if that happens to come soon) or for the season when you really can go only 7 deep......better to start with those 7 all being B- at zone, say, along with higher IQs at press - so you can run some zone or a combo etc etc

3/2/2011 6:16 PM
I would assume that, if and when the press goes away as a primary defense, they'll flip your IQ's that are currently built up in press over to man/zone.  I feel like I've heard that would be the plan at some point in the past so that everyone running press didn't all of a sudden have D/F IQ's in man/zone and be forced to start running one of them.
3/2/2011 6:22 PM
mets, you're at a whole different level in this game than I am, but wasting even a few minutes on a defense you don't play seems like a huge waste to me.  I'm just starting to try to learn to play with the press, but my basic strategy is just to be a bit more passive during recruiting to make sure I don't end up too short-handed to run it.  I've been playing HD for about a year now and seble had already been talking about doing away with the press for a long time at that point.  Think how many practice minutes you wasted in 12 seasons of Phelan teaching your players a defense they don't use.
3/2/2011 11:35 PM
fair point - I go back and forth on this - but especially when I am a season away from a big class I tend to want to have zone available - in case I blow recruiting - so the insurance is worth it to spend say 3 or 4 mins on zone - when I have a small next class or classes, I often slide that down to 1 or 2 mins.....the main thing for me is protection against a season in which I have no depth - I dont want to be compelled to run fcp with 7 guys.
3/3/2011 6:21 PM
Fullcourt press question Topic

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