Posted by hughesjr on 4/23/2011 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/22/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

You can't set + or - defense against a single player, only against an entire lineup. This is why it's best to have a balanced offense with 3 pt shooters and inside scorers, so if any time an opponent goes +5 or -5, either your big or your backcourt punishes them.

If what you are saying is true, then why not just set everyone to 0 distro as well, since in the flow of the game, it makes the most sense to have the engine to decide who's open and who's not, and have that person take the shot, as opposed to piling on 30 distro to your 100ath/spd/per/bh SG.

It is important to have balance in your scoring, yes.  That will keep people from playing +5 or -5 on defense.  But what I said about PER/LP and 0 for 3 pt shooting is ratio is also true.

Daniel Grant  and  Chad Schafer were both set at 0 last season for 3 pt shooting.  As you can see, Grant took 75% of his shots from 3 pt range while Schafer took 81% of his shots from 2 point range.  This is because Grant has a PER of 97 and an LP of 9 while Schafer has a PER of 53 and an LP of 64 ... therefore Schafer's 0 shoots many fewer 3 pointer's than Grant's 0.  But, if Grant were facing a team that was playing us at +3 or higher, he could take 2 point shots in that scenario ... but if he was set at +2 for 3pt then he would continue shooting 3's at his normal clip (but he would not shoot them as well).

So you set your whole team to 0 in terms of 3pt frequency? Do you set your distro to 0 as well?

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/23/2011 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/22/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

You can't set + or - defense against a single player, only against an entire lineup. This is why it's best to have a balanced offense with 3 pt shooters and inside scorers, so if any time an opponent goes +5 or -5, either your big or your backcourt punishes them.

If what you are saying is true, then why not just set everyone to 0 distro as well, since in the flow of the game, it makes the most sense to have the engine to decide who's open and who's not, and have that person take the shot, as opposed to piling on 30 distro to your 100ath/spd/per/bh SG.

It is important to have balance in your scoring, yes.  That will keep people from playing +5 or -5 on defense.  But what I said about PER/LP and 0 for 3 pt shooting is ratio is also true.

Daniel Grant  and  Chad Schafer were both set at 0 last season for 3 pt shooting.  As you can see, Grant took 75% of his shots from 3 pt range while Schafer took 81% of his shots from 2 point range.  This is because Grant has a PER of 97 and an LP of 9 while Schafer has a PER of 53 and an LP of 64 ... therefore Schafer's 0 shoots many fewer 3 pointer's than Grant's 0.  But, if Grant were facing a team that was playing us at +3 or higher, he could take 2 point shots in that scenario ... but if he was set at +2 for 3pt then he would continue shooting 3's at his normal clip (but he would not shoot them as well).

So you set your whole team to 0 in terms of 3pt frequency? Do you set your distro to 0 as well?

No, I do not set my whole team to 0 for 3 pt or distro ... I do normally set my whole team to between -1 , 0, +1 on 3 point frequency for the reasons I mentioned.

I am not sure why you want to be so confrontational when someone offers an opinion though.

I am not asking you to like the way I do things or to do them yourself ... I am just offering you something that you might think about.

I did not attack you, call you names, say your method sucks, or anything else that should provoke any attacks.

If you want to set all your guys to +2, go for it. 

Posted by hughesjr on 4/23/2011 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/22/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

You can't set + or - defense against a single player, only against an entire lineup. This is why it's best to have a balanced offense with 3 pt shooters and inside scorers, so if any time an opponent goes +5 or -5, either your big or your backcourt punishes them.

If what you are saying is true, then why not just set everyone to 0 distro as well, since in the flow of the game, it makes the most sense to have the engine to decide who's open and who's not, and have that person take the shot, as opposed to piling on 30 distro to your 100ath/spd/per/bh SG.

It is important to have balance in your scoring, yes.  That will keep people from playing +5 or -5 on defense.  But what I said about PER/LP and 0 for 3 pt shooting is ratio is also true.

Daniel Grant  and  Chad Schafer were both set at 0 last season for 3 pt shooting.  As you can see, Grant took 75% of his shots from 3 pt range while Schafer took 81% of his shots from 2 point range.  This is because Grant has a PER of 97 and an LP of 9 while Schafer has a PER of 53 and an LP of 64 ... therefore Schafer's 0 shoots many fewer 3 pointer's than Grant's 0.  But, if Grant were facing a team that was playing us at +3 or higher, he could take 2 point shots in that scenario ... but if he was set at +2 for 3pt then he would continue shooting 3's at his normal clip (but he would not shoot them as well).

This is distinctly untrue.  Even at +2 your guy will shoot a smaller percentage of 3 pt. shots against a heavily + defense than against a neutral or - defense.  They'll still shoot more 3s against a + defense than a guy at +1 or 0, but that's going to be true against any defense.

Posted by hughesjr on 4/23/2011 7:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 7:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/23/2011 5:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 4/23/2011 1:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by hughesjr on 4/22/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
tiany, that is one way to look at it ... but here is another way.

With the flow of the game (0) will allow an SG who has a 90 PER and a 10 LP shoot almost all his shots as 3 pointers if the match up is right (anything up to about +3) ... but if someone is playing a +4 or +5 in the second half, it will also allow the same SG to drive and score.  If someone is play a +5, you are not going to shoot 50% from 3 point range, but if drive on that type of D you can still score a high percentage of the time.  If you force 3's in that situation that may not be good.

I personally think the same thing is true with setting all the guys to -2 for 3 pt shooting as well ... for normal circumstances it is fine, but if someone plays you at -4 or -5, you need the guys have the opportunity to shoot from outside more.  If you force them at -2 for 3pt shots, then they will keep pounding it in even on a -5 defense.  Under normal conditions, a C with 85 LP and 2 PER is not going to shoot many 3's even with a 0 setting ... but he is not going to shoot well against a -5 by pounding either.

All the +2 and -2 do (IMHO) is put you in a bind if someone plays an extreme defense against you ... preventing your team from being able to adjust.  Most coaches are afraid of the big + or - defenses and since SIMs always start at 0, they are limited to a -2 to +2 range for defense in the second half.  I suppose if noone plays a +4 or +5 (and/or a -4 or -5) defense against you then it does not matter where you set your 3pt slider ... but if they do, then -1 to +1 would seem better to me for 3 pt shooting.

You can't set + or - defense against a single player, only against an entire lineup. This is why it's best to have a balanced offense with 3 pt shooters and inside scorers, so if any time an opponent goes +5 or -5, either your big or your backcourt punishes them.

If what you are saying is true, then why not just set everyone to 0 distro as well, since in the flow of the game, it makes the most sense to have the engine to decide who's open and who's not, and have that person take the shot, as opposed to piling on 30 distro to your 100ath/spd/per/bh SG.

It is important to have balance in your scoring, yes.  That will keep people from playing +5 or -5 on defense.  But what I said about PER/LP and 0 for 3 pt shooting is ratio is also true.

Daniel Grant  and  Chad Schafer were both set at 0 last season for 3 pt shooting.  As you can see, Grant took 75% of his shots from 3 pt range while Schafer took 81% of his shots from 2 point range.  This is because Grant has a PER of 97 and an LP of 9 while Schafer has a PER of 53 and an LP of 64 ... therefore Schafer's 0 shoots many fewer 3 pointer's than Grant's 0.  But, if Grant were facing a team that was playing us at +3 or higher, he could take 2 point shots in that scenario ... but if he was set at +2 for 3pt then he would continue shooting 3's at his normal clip (but he would not shoot them as well).

So you set your whole team to 0 in terms of 3pt frequency? Do you set your distro to 0 as well?

No, I do not set my whole team to 0 for 3 pt or distro ... I do normally set my whole team to between -1 , 0, +1 on 3 point frequency for the reasons I mentioned.

I am not sure why you want to be so confrontational when someone offers an opinion though.

I am not asking you to like the way I do things or to do them yourself ... I am just offering you something that you might think about.

I did not attack you, call you names, say your method sucks, or anything else that should provoke any attacks.

If you want to set all your guys to +2, go for it. 

Which part of me asking you do you set your whole team to 0 in 3pt frequency ofr0 in distro constitutes as an attack. If your argument is that setting 0 to 3pt frequency means the players takes 2pt shots and 3pt shots according to what the defense give him, which means he shoots at optimal efficiency, then the natural result of your argument is that 0 is the best 3 pt allocation, and all your players are set to 0. And if this is indeed your point, one has to wonder why you set your players to +1 (aka, forcing the player to take 3s inefficiently). 

Similarly, there have been coaches who started threads before asking if 0 distro is the best for motion offense, given that 0 will have the sim decide on the most open person to take the shot. A majority of coaches responded this was not a good idea. If you have so much faith in the engine deciding on what kind of shots (2 pt v. 3 pt) to take, how is it not fair to ask what your thoughts on distro are?

And for the record, if I do have a 90+ per shooter with good ath/spd, I do set him to +2. I will gladly have my 3 pt shooter chuck up 3 pointers at an inefficient 50-55% for the season. Unless this player can shoot .700+ in fg% at 0, I don't see any reason to deviate from +2, and have him take a 2pt shot at .550. 

The one big disadvantage, one would think, is that three point shooting is much more mercurial than two point shooting in general - more ups and downs.

OTOH I have three point shooters I pretty much set at plus two as a disincentive for someone playing a heavy minus defense.  Even if their shooting goes down, it has the effect of drawing the other defense out - especially if they have things set to adjust at halftime.

My thoughts on setting everyone's distro to zero are that it does not JUST set the distros to zero.  This does not start a game with everyone's distro at zero, it tells "the Engine" that you want it to calculate a different value for every player.  This calculation does not take into account the type of defense or the matchups that the other team has .. it is only based on your player's offensive abilities.

This setting (all distributions to 0) also tells "the Engine" to calculate the applicable settings for the 3pt frequency for each player.  It does not set
all the 3 point frequencies to zero, it sets them to some value that it calculates.

Here are the notes from the FAQ for that:
==========================================
NOTE: If you leave all of the distribution points to zero for all players, the engine will determine the frequency at which players will shoot and their frequency of 3 pt. shots. This is not recommended as the computer only looks at your offensive skills - ignoring the opposing team and their defensive style completely.

NOTE: If you leave the offensive distribution values to zero for all players, the computer will decide who should take shots AND their frequency of 3 pt. attempts - EVEN IF YOU HAVE VALUES FOR 3 PT. FREQUENCY.
==========================================

So, if someone set all the distros to 0 for the computer to "pick the player who is open" ... well, that is not what the computer will do.  It will instead change all the distros and 3pt settings to some value that it calculates based only on your offense and not on your opponent.  What is worse, it does not "tell you" what it thinks the best settings are, it sets them at calculated non-zero values and you would need to spend a whole lot of time to nail down.

I would not recommend this unless you want to see who "the Engine" thinks is your best offensive players, etc.

There is some variability built into the engine, so that if I team is playing a minus defense the engine will shoot more shoots outside the paint and if they are playing a plus defense they will shoot more shots inside the paint, etc.  What would be a viable tactic might be to set all your starters at the same "non zero" distro to have them all have the same number of shots run for them (maybe set every starter to 2) ... then set all the backup players to a different non zero number to give them less shots (maybe a 1).  In that scenario, your starters would get more shots than your backups and your team would adjust to the defense with every starter having the same chance of getting a shot, modified by what kind of defense your opponent is playing.  It is only a short way from this method to the one I actually recommend.

I recommend that you give every starter at least some value of distribution and that you modify that slightly to take advantage of your players skills and your opponents weaknesses.  The backups would also get minimum value that can be adjusted up or down based on their skills and the opponent.

hughes, I agree with a good portion of what you're saying, but I can also tell you that the FAQ is wrong in regards to the 3pt shooting part.