Check out my UMass Boston team in Smith

http://whatifsports.com/hd/TeamProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=5080

In season 48, which you say is the first new season after the update, 34-1 UMass won the title playing a zone defense. I don't recall my SOS but it was surely top 5 at least. Granted, that team had 10 SRs and JRs and was very talented but I defeated many offensive powerhouses en route to the title. Any DIII vet in Smith will attest that Santa Cruz is perennially a top 5 offensive team and I beat them twice. Not trying to brag, just stating the facts

Since then (under my current alias) we have two first round exits with young teams. I don't keep stats but my zone defense has won some games for me despite my offensive struggles, in my opinion. I can't say that I've noticed the changes you are mentioning, either. Perhaps you just had an aberration, a fantastic statistical run that had to end some time?

As for saying that your crooked shotblocking numbers (crazy impressive) are indicative of the zone being broken I would point out that you have some great shotblockers. I have noticed as well that a great DIII shotblocker (80+) with respectable ATH & DEF will block a lot of shots even in a zone which supposedly hinders shotblocking.

Finally, I was amazed that you put up that four year run of defensive dominance exclusively playing 2-3 zone. Even with the guards on my current team with their great DEF, ATH & IQs will give up 3's to good perimeter shooters in a 2-3. I find myself playing a lot of 3-2. Maybe try mixing that in?

Too much to read through this late at night...but i had a fantastic zone defense at elmhurst in tark this past season.  Finished 17 RPI and 34 SOS, but were hurt by a very weak conference.  With even just a good conference we were easily a top 10 RPI team, IMO.  For the season we held teams to .386% FG which was 3rd best in the country.  In our weak conference teams shot 36%, so without doing the math I'd say that still means that our non-conference and tournament games we were holding teams to about 40-41%.  We played 7 top 25 RPI teams in non-con, so I'd say that was a pretty solid performance.

We also led the country in shotblocking while playing a zone (7.1 per game) ...but we also had phenomenal shot blockers.  My front line went 98, 96, 96, 74. 

Posted by kujayhawk on 6/2/2011 6:35:00 PM (view original):
Before I start to make my post/rant, I want to make it clear that I'm really not sure that there is anything wrong with the zone defense.  I thought twice about clicking the "post" button and thought about deleting this instead of posting.  But at the end I figured it wouldn't hurt to make the case for zone being broken and let you guys tear it down.  And if my ambivalence here tell you anything, it is that I'm not sure I even buy my own argument.

Quick background:
I had a top 5 FG/FG3 defense in seasons 44, 45, 46, and 47 of Allen D3 running a zone defense.  When adjusted for schedule (my SOS is always top 10 and typically top 5), my defense was probably #1 in all four of the seasons.

Something has happened the past two seasons for my team in Allen.  Last season in 48, I had an average defense.  This season in 49, it is a bit better but it still is not even close to being elite.

I admit to being baffled by this.  I've pretty much been recruiting the same types of players and I went from a run of having the top defense in D3 to having  a defense that is not much better than your typical D3 coach.  (And that includes the one-and-done coaches.)

I'm so baffled by this, I created a really stupid thread last week questioning if my 700 overall rated player was hurting my team -- because he's my worst defender.  I'm trying to figure out what could have happened and I've been questioning everything.  Turns out I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  And so now I'm shifting the blame to WIS.  I think the 2/3 update really damaged the zone defense.  That update took place right as Allen switched from season 47 to 48.

My crackpot theory is really hurt by the fact that there is not much in the release notes that suggests why the update would have had a big impact on zone.  It's why I'm really reluctant to make this post.  At the same time, my defensive FG/FG3 numbers are terrible compared to what they were the four prior seasons and the 2/3 update occurred at the same time my numbers turned sour.  And the quality of my roster seems to be as good now as it was then.  In fact, I'd argue (and I think that my conference mates would agree) that my current roster is my strongest of the past six seasons.  But this team is quite a bit worse than the 44-47 teams.

And what truly has my mind spinning about this is that the 2/3 update lowered field goal percentages across the board.  Yet, for my team they have sky rocketed.  In seasons 44-47 I was holding teams to a 39-40% FG% and 28-29 FG3%.  The past two seasons after the update that lowered field goal percentages, my FG% rate is about 44% and my FG3% is about 35%.  I've tried looking up and down at my roster to figure out what I've done to cause other teams to shoot about 5% better from the field after an update was made to lower percentages and I'm just coming up empty.  So I'm blaming the zone.

Rubbing salt in the wound is that I have the best shot blocking team in D3.  (That statistic in itself might suggest that zone isn't broken.)  Right now, I'm blocking 13% of my opponents field goals.  I have no idea how many others I'm disrupting, but it can't be zero.  I really am having a hard time coming to terms with the fact that I'm disrupting/blocking so many shots and I still can't put up a decent percentage.  Were it not for the blocks, teams would be shooting 50% against me.

And I do want to point out that I have a good roster.  It's the only team in Allen D3 that is in the top 25 overall rankings for athleticism (5th), speed (17th), rebounding (22nd), defense (3rd), and shot blocking (8th).

I wanted to check and see if I was the exception to the rule.  This was a bit difficult to answer, but I'm going to say that I'm not.  There most definitely are zone defense right now that are putting up outstanding numbers.  If you look at the top defensive FG teams in D3 (and especially D2) there are a number of zone teams in Allen.  However, they almost all have terrible SOS.  In D3, none is better than 200 and most are 300+.  D2 does have two teams running zone quite well that have SOS in the 90's.  Those two teams might be proof that zone isn't broke the way I think it is.

So I took a different approach.  And looking at these two methods, albeit each flawed in its own way, leads me to the conclusion that something is wrong with zone.

1. Pretty much no good teams run zone.  Looking at top 25 RPI in the Allen world, there are two teams that run zone of the 75 in D1, D2, and D3.  No top 25 team runs zon in D1.  #22 Montana St, Billings does in D2.  For D3 you have my team.  And while I'm in the top 25, it's because my offense is lights out, my rebounding gives me second chances when they miss, and I get to the free throw line when those first two options fail.  I'm winning, but it's because of the offensive side of the ball.

(I don't want to give the fact that no good teams run zone much credit.  I think Occam's Razor applies here and explains most things.  Zone has been a *slightly* lesser option for a while and therefore teams just don't run zone.  Honestly, if you are running zone at this point, you are a bit of an idiot for doing so.  At the same time, it's a bit striking that there is nobody at all running it besides me and MSB.)

2. Of the top 25 RPI in Allen D3, I have the worst FG/FG3 percentages of any of the teams.  Every other team plays better defense and that's a bit odd since as I noted earlier, I'm the only team that is excellent in athleticism, speed, rebounding, defense, and shot blocking.  You'd think that with my team being quicker, faster, stronger that I'd be better on defense than at least of one other top 25 teams, but that isn't the case.


Super long post, so to quickly summarize:
1. I used to have the best defense in Allen D3 and running zone to do it.
2. WIS released the major update on 2/3.
3. Despite the update lowing percentages across the board, mine has skyrocked up and with my best team on paper in a while.
4. I am blocking a ton of shots right now, so my poor FG/FG3 percentages would be even worse were it not for the blocks.
5. Surveying the landscape in Allen reveals that nobody is running zone well right now.


I honestly am looking for folks to tear apart my half-brained theory.  Nothing in the update suggests that zone was broken.  At the same time, I really am struggling to explain why I'm so bad on defense compared to the other top teams.  Maybe I'm just not as good as I think I am???

To an extent, I'd say yes, it's less def. worse than before, I'm not sure if that's "broken" or not, but it is clearly not as good as man in the new engine, which is a shame.  I cite 2 main reasons.

1.  The largest thing is they did not adjust rebounding.  IE, Zones hurt you by giving up more offensive rebounds. Therefore, with lower FG% in the new engine, more offensive rebounding chances and even MORE chances for opposing teams to get those offensive rebounding.  Even with large ATH/RBD advantages, I RARELY get more offensive rebounds than my opponents.  This is just flat wrong and broken.

2. With FG% being down on the whole, 2pt FG% is now closer to 3pt FG% overall.  (IE there's incentive to shoot more 3's).  Therefore the zone, which gives up more outside shots(2-3), has been made weaker in that regard as well.

1.  The largest thing is they did not adjust rebounding.  IE, Zones hurt you by giving up more offensive rebounds. Therefore, with lower FG% in the new engine, more offensive rebounding chances and even MORE chances for opposing teams to get those offensive rebounding.  Even with large ATH/RBD advantages, I RARELY get more offensive rebounds than my opponents.  This is just flat wrong and broken.
 

This just isn't the zone.   The change they did to rebounding affects all 3 defenses.  Even my M2M teams have had a hard time getting a rebounding advantage with superior ratings.  They sort of nuked that component as a whole.

chuwbacca says:

As for saying that your crooked shotblocking numbers (crazy impressive) are indicative of the zone being broken I would point out that you have some great shotblockers. I have noticed as well that a great DIII shotblocker (80+) with respectable ATH & DEF will block a lot of shots even in a zone which supposedly hinders shotblocking.

My understanding has always been that shot blocking is enhanced by the zone defense and a key component to a good zone is a good shot blocker or two.

Posted by mullycj on 6/6/2011 6:36:00 AM (view original):

1.  The largest thing is they did not adjust rebounding.  IE, Zones hurt you by giving up more offensive rebounds. Therefore, with lower FG% in the new engine, more offensive rebounding chances and even MORE chances for opposing teams to get those offensive rebounding.  Even with large ATH/RBD advantages, I RARELY get more offensive rebounds than my opponents.  This is just flat wrong and broken.
 

This just isn't the zone.   The change they did to rebounding affects all 3 defenses.  Even my M2M teams have had a hard time getting a rebounding advantage with superior ratings.  They sort of nuked that component as a whole.

Noted, my point is merely a practical one, more shots missed=more offensive rebound chances, which in theory make the zone even weaker in that area since it already gets a penalty there.

Haha. I actually think we're entering the era of the zone. I almost declared it last season but didn't want to draw unnecessary attention to it. I even hesitated commenting here but no one takes me seriously anyway and I found it amusing to see this post saying the already dead zone is even deader. I don't dare point out any reasons why either. Also shhhh... to haasdr, chuwbacca, and tiany. We need a zone coach mailing list... or maybe just put this in one of the rarely visited subforums so these secrets of the zone stay guarded.

That long post I made on page 1?  Yeah, that was a bit off target.

Some really good coaches have privately sitemailed me to tell me just how off target I was in my post.  They were polite enough to avoid publicly shaming me but since I opened the thread, I think it is only fair for me to say I that I was incorrect to make the post and my rational for thinking zone was broken was wrong.

Just because my team is not playing well in a zone does not mean zone is broken.  It means exactly what the facts say -- my team is not good enough to play zone well.  I thought I had assembled a pretty good roster, but in the private sitemails I was sort of taken to task for making the claims that I had a "dominant" roster when in reality that isn't the case.  I had made the mistake of looking at team ratings and a couple of the coaches pointed out that on a man-to-man basis, I have little reason to think that I would be successful defensively.  Be it zone, man, or press.  But in particular to the zone, I made some really poor recruiting decisions that suggest I shouldn't be playing a good *team* defense.

So apologies for starting the thread and thanks much for the veteran coaches that set me straight.  While threads like this sort of pollute the forums, I really do appreciate the fact that it also brings out some of the really good coaches to help out a coach like me.

The one thing that probably caused the most problems for me is that I only have a team in one world.  Right now in Allen there aren't many good teams running zone, but that's not because it's broke.  One world is a really bad sample size and if I had the opportunity to look elsewhere, I would have realized that I was off base.

There aren't many successful teams running zone in any of the worlds I'm in. 

Right. The zone is still on the wrong side of the imbalance and your OP wasn't outrageously off base. Nor would I call it a small sample size whine thread either. All said I think it was a good thread. I mostly wanted to chime in as another zone coach to say hi to my brothers. Keep fighting the good fight.