Guards: speed vs athleticism Topic

rednation58
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/28/2011 1:24:00 PM (view original):
No one knows which factor carries the most weight but the consensus is that ath and speed matters the most, and among these 2, no one knows. This is why people come on this board asking for advice about which player is better, who would you play, etc. and the opinions vary. There is no objective criteria to decide and weigh the different ratings. Personally, in my formula, I slightly weigh athleticism more than speed for all my players. 

LP matters for guards. The '07 dev chat is from 4 years ago and things have changed alot since then. 
Alright I guess I can accept that although I'm holding on to hope that someone knows...and I can't really argue with the results from your formula looking at your overall record... something is working for you.
9/28/2011 2:44 PM
jbob23
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As I told you before, I prefer athleticism over speed. That doesn't mean I neglect speed and neither should you. Heck you will find a lot of guards among my teams that have more speed then athleticism but I do look for as high athleticism as I can get with each player.

 In this game speed and athleticism trump. You should balance out your teams with a player who can really shoot it and score it (per and lp) though. Don't neglect BH and P but you don't need them to be really high in every player. Try to get players with at least 20 in each though to limit turnovers. Those are a few pointers to help but again look around and see how others do it. Pay attention to who has success and look at each player and determine why. Good luck...
9/28/2011 3:59 PM
narcotico
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I prefer speed to ath for my guards, and even SFs...but that's just me. I would recruit a 80 SP 30 ATH guard, but I would never even consider a 30 SP 80 ATH guard. In D3 I've seen plenty of successful guards with ATH<50, but I've never seen a top team with sub 50 SP guards.

That said both attributes are clearly important, and you can have success emphasizing one or the other...but don't expect to have success with low SP guards IMO, regardless of ATH.

And just to be clear LP definitely is used by guards now, that was changed several years ago.
9/28/2011 4:00 PM
metsmax
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Posted by rednation58 on 9/28/2011 2:44:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/28/2011 1:24:00 PM (view original):
No one knows which factor carries the most weight but the consensus is that ath and speed matters the most, and among these 2, no one knows. This is why people come on this board asking for advice about which player is better, who would you play, etc. and the opinions vary. There is no objective criteria to decide and weigh the different ratings. Personally, in my formula, I slightly weigh athleticism more than speed for all my players. 

LP matters for guards. The '07 dev chat is from 4 years ago and things have changed alot since then. 
Alright I guess I can accept that although I'm holding on to hope that someone knows...and I can't really argue with the results from your formula looking at your overall record... something is working for you.

no doubt there are numbers associated with the contributions of these factors, but i dont know them and I have played since the beginning.  I dont think anyone knows.

I think it is intentional that we dont know The Numbers.  In part, there would need to be lots of numbers - not just one set.  What works best in a certain system, shooting from a certain spot on the floor, against an opponent with certain sklllz.  I believe that it is a dynamic system and it would be very hard to "lnow" the numbers.  I reckon that the programmers amongst us could work it if given the source code......but would that be fun?

9/28/2011 4:08 PM
tianyi7886
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One thing to point out, players with high ath always have high defense rating. Players with low ath also have low defense rating. 
9/28/2011 4:08 PM
bow2dacowz
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comparing speed and athleticism  is somewhat relative because the average starting values across the board are not nearly the same (at least that's my observation).  You will find guards starting with 50 speed all day long, but you won't find nearly as many starting at 50 athleticism at lower levels.  Odds are you're going to recruit guys with more speed than athleticism just based on the number of players available with each quality...if not, you're going to be in trouble.  I agree completely with what Narcotico is saying in the 80/30 vs 30/80 comparison, however at D3 or even D2 if i found an 80/30 guy with high potential and could afford to redshirt him and wait a couple years to really need him i might take a flyer on him.

i guess my point is that it's harder to find guys with elite athleticism than it is with elite speed.  as Narcotico says, you can win a lot of games with a couple 30/80 guys at D3...and they aren't all that hard to find/develop.  but if you want to get over the hump and have a shot at winning the big one you're gonna need to find a couple 60/80 or 50/90 guys.  speed can get you up the mountain but athleticism can put you over the top. 
9/28/2011 4:15 PM
jjwarden
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/28/2011 4:08:00 PM (view original):
One thing to point out, players with high ath always have high defense rating. Players with low ath also have low defense rating. 
Actually that is not always the case.  Most of the time yes, but about 7 seasons ago I had a player who was 99 ATH and 97 speed (DII guard) but he only had 19 DEF.  What was interesting is that I played a M2M and he won national DEF player of the year with a 19 DEF rating in M2M.  Jbob who has posted on this thread may remember him.  Most of the time ATH and DEF are relatively connected but not always.  I do think however, that ATH plays a major role in the players ability to defend well.  Especially when it comes to steals.   
9/28/2011 5:43 PM
rednation58
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Posted by bow2dacowz on 9/28/2011 4:15:00 PM (view original):
comparing speed and athleticism  is somewhat relative because the average starting values across the board are not nearly the same (at least that's my observation).  You will find guards starting with 50 speed all day long, but you won't find nearly as many starting at 50 athleticism at lower levels.  Odds are you're going to recruit guys with more speed than athleticism just based on the number of players available with each quality...if not, you're going to be in trouble.  I agree completely with what Narcotico is saying in the 80/30 vs 30/80 comparison, however at D3 or even D2 if i found an 80/30 guy with high potential and could afford to redshirt him and wait a couple years to really need him i might take a flyer on him.

i guess my point is that it's harder to find guys with elite athleticism than it is with elite speed.  as Narcotico says, you can win a lot of games with a couple 30/80 guys at D3...and they aren't all that hard to find/develop.  but if you want to get over the hump and have a shot at winning the big one you're gonna need to find a couple 60/80 or 50/90 guys.  speed can get you up the mountain but athleticism can put you over the top. 
This makes a lot of sense from a perspective of haves vs. have nots stats wise. It is harder to find more ATH guards. It's hard to get a 90+ speed guy too but I see where you are coming from. 
9/28/2011 7:00 PM
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