Posted by tecwrg on 12/21/2011 11:31:00 AM (view original):
A SS arm in CF generates a ton of plus plays and GG's at the position.

Amos Taylor

I've seen this as well. In diamondbacks, multiple users employ this method.

Not sure it's the arm as much as it is the 92 range.  The arm doesn't hurt, but range is king in the outfield.

No, it's the arm:

9/29/2010 3:22 PM	tecwrg
Good afternoon, I'm trying to get a handle on plus/minus plays. I've got Amos Taylor playing CF for me in Mantle. He's got defensive ratings of 92/82/92/91 and is making a lot of plus plays in CF for me. But when I go through the box scores, I'm seeing that most of the plus plays are on base hits. Should I assume that it's his high range (92) that's responsible for these plus play, in that he's getting to balls and turning doubles into singles, or triples into doubles? Or could his very high arm strenth/accuracy (92/91) be preventing runners from taking the extra base? Just to clarify: all of his plus plays are either marked as + (good) or ++ (great), but not +- (good range). The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering another player for CF with similar range but much lower arm ratings, and I'm concerned about the impact to my defense. I cannot really tell from the box scores how much of the plus plays are atttributed to range as opposed to arm. Thanks.
10/1/2010 11:28 AM	Customer Support
Bill, In this specific case it is because of his arm strength and accuracy. Had it been due to his range it would have been denoted as such in the boxscore.
10/1/2010 1:50 PM	tecwrg
Good to know. Thanks for the response.

Posted by tecwrg on 12/21/2011 8:49:00 PM (view original):
No, it's the arm:

9/29/2010 3:22 PM	tecwrg
Good afternoon, I'm trying to get a handle on plus/minus plays. I've got Amos Taylor playing CF for me in Mantle. He's got defensive ratings of 92/82/92/91 and is making a lot of plus plays in CF for me. But when I go through the box scores, I'm seeing that most of the plus plays are on base hits. Should I assume that it's his high range (92) that's responsible for these plus play, in that he's getting to balls and turning doubles into singles, or triples into doubles? Or could his very high arm strenth/accuracy (92/91) be preventing runners from taking the extra base? Just to clarify: all of his plus plays are either marked as + (good) or ++ (great), but not +- (good range). The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering another player for CF with similar range but much lower arm ratings, and I'm concerned about the impact to my defense. I cannot really tell from the box scores how much of the plus plays are atttributed to range as opposed to arm. Thanks.
10/1/2010 11:28 AM	Customer Support
Bill, In this specific case it is because of his arm strength and accuracy. Had it been due to his range it would have been denoted as such in the boxscore.
10/1/2010 1:50 PM	tecwrg
Good to know. Thanks for the response.

This is odd.

I play Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Miguel Canseco in CF.  Very similar numbers to Amos for his career (he has averaged a plus play every 62 innings versus Amos's one/66 innings), including assists, yet his arm is clearly weaker and less accurate.  No plus plays yet this season so I cannot check, but I do not remember his plus plays being noted as due to range rather than arm strength, rather they show up as a generic "+ play" in the box score. 

Whatever the answer, you can get a ton of plus plays from a guys with range regardless of the arm strength/accuracy.

Posted by tedwmoore on 12/22/2011 12:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 12/21/2011 8:49:00 PM (view original):
No, it's the arm:

9/29/2010 3:22 PM	tecwrg
Good afternoon, I'm trying to get a handle on plus/minus plays. I've got Amos Taylor playing CF for me in Mantle. He's got defensive ratings of 92/82/92/91 and is making a lot of plus plays in CF for me. But when I go through the box scores, I'm seeing that most of the plus plays are on base hits. Should I assume that it's his high range (92) that's responsible for these plus play, in that he's getting to balls and turning doubles into singles, or triples into doubles? Or could his very high arm strenth/accuracy (92/91) be preventing runners from taking the extra base? Just to clarify: all of his plus plays are either marked as + (good) or ++ (great), but not +- (good range). The reason I'm asking is because I'm considering another player for CF with similar range but much lower arm ratings, and I'm concerned about the impact to my defense. I cannot really tell from the box scores how much of the plus plays are atttributed to range as opposed to arm. Thanks.
10/1/2010 11:28 AM	Customer Support
Bill, In this specific case it is because of his arm strength and accuracy. Had it been due to his range it would have been denoted as such in the boxscore.
10/1/2010 1:50 PM	tecwrg
Good to know. Thanks for the response.

This is odd.

I play Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Miguel Canseco in CF.  Very similar numbers to Amos for his career (he has averaged a plus play every 62 innings versus Amos's one/66 innings), including assists, yet his arm is clearly weaker and less accurate.  No plus plays yet this season so I cannot check, but I do not remember his plus plays being noted as due to range rather than arm strength, rather they show up as a generic "+ play" in the box score. 

Whatever the answer, you can get a ton of plus plays from a guys with range regardless of the arm strength/accuracy.

Looking at career leaders for plus plays in center field (in Mauer), there are Canseco, Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Scott Brennaman and Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Hipolito Sanchez with significant numbers.

Brennaman has 152 in 11,920 innings, with peak defensive ratings of 94/85/58/57.  Sanchez has 125 in 10,574 innings with peak ratings of 92/85/54/59.

In Mantle there are Taylor and Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Fausto Urbina.  Urbina has 149 in 11,418 with peak defensive ratings of 95/81/57/57. 

In Morgan we have Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Vladimir Goya and Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Albert Pena.  Goya has 291 plus plays in 15,796 innings with peak ratings of 97/90/51/62.  Pena tallied 224 in 11,854 innings with ratings of 100/90/51/72.

And in Kinsella we have Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Stan Whiten, Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: DaRond Wagner, Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Jordan Brower, Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Damian Chen, Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Damian Chen and Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Wayne Blank.  Whiten's peak ratings were 99/78/57/62; Wagner's were 99/73/63/61; Brower's were 98/86/60/56; Chen's were 91/88/58/67; and Blank's were 98/91/63/63.

Your guy Taylor is the clear exception when it comes to arm strength and accuracy, as my guy, Canseco, and Wayne Blank are the only others listed here with an arm strength rating north of 59, and they do it just barely (60 and 63).  And other than customer service's reply to your ticket (which I still find odd), there is no evidence here to suggest that Taylor's arm is getting him plus plays that his range would not have already gotten him, at least not based on his plus plays per inning played.   

Yeah, I think I lean towards ted's analysis and not CS's response. 

Well then.  I'm so glad I bothered to ask CS.

You should have asked me first.  

I didn't want to be a pest.

There's a thread for that, dumbass

Posted by deathinahole on 12/22/2011 12:26:00 PM (view original):
There's a thread for that, dumbass

If you remove the comma, your post takes on a completely different yet entirely accurate meaning.

If you look at the plus plays, the only notes that are provided that mention range are the +/- plays.  All other plays are just labeled "good" or "great".  I am sure arm plays into it as well, but I would be surprised if you had more plus plays from the arm ratings than from the range.  I know my CF in Jaha gets 90% of his plus plays on outs, which implies that the range is the deciding factor.

This is interesting.  I just went and looked at the league leaders for CF plus plays in Cooperstown, which is near the end of the regular season (155 games played)..

The CFers with the most plus plays both have 17.  One guy has a more "traditional" CF arm (defensive ratings of 91/85/61/75), the other has a SS arm (89/85/85/82).

Looking through the game logs and box scores where they had their plus plays, the first guy had 13 on fly-outs (denoted by yellow ++ in the PBP) and 4 on base hits (denoted by green + in the PBP).  The second guy was almost identical at 12 and 5.

So looking at these two guys, the difference in arm ratings seemed to have little to no impact on their plus plays, as they had the same number of play distributed nearly identically.

But when I did the analysis of my player, Amos Taylor, almost a year ago, it seems like the majority of his plus plays were on base hits.  Unfortunately, I did not note any specific numbers in my ticket, so I don't know exactly what the breakdown was at that time.  Maybe he just had an unusual variance by chance at the time.

I guess the only thing I can surmise now is that the plus plays noted by the yellow ++ are due to range, and the one noted by green + are due to arm.

So I have been on the lookout for this +- designation for good range plays and I came across my first example....an error when my SS booted a routine grounder and the base runner reached first. Not certain how this illustrates good range. From the description "routine ground ball" I assume it did not require good range to be in position to make the error, but maybe that assumption is wrong. Like I said before, I do not remember many plus plays in the outfield being designated as +- as opposes to either + or ++, and this instance of a +- play involving an error further convinces me that CS's reply to tec's ticket was odd, and by odd I mean wrong/misleading.

This is what I now think, an opinion based on one play which of course makes it quite well informed: +- means the guy showed good range getting to a ball but still committed an error (this at least makes the use of both a plus and minus sign intelligible); + and ++ denote varying degrees of awesomeness (highly technical distinction, I know).

This leaves unexplained why a guy with a strong, accurate arm in center would not produce a greater amount of either assists or plus plays (or both) as compared with a similarly rangy guy whose arm is weaker. I have some theories thoguh and will post them in another reply.