I think it is a bad idea to have a TERRIBLE anything...but  if you have AVERAGE ratings, the good SPD/ATH will make up for it (somewhat, or hopefully, enough).

Posted by coach_billyg on 9/30/2011 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 9/29/2011 4:15:00 PM (view original):
"True. All-in. But you will need to focus on REB/PE/LP/BH/PA too for some of your players."


That isn't ALL-IN.  That is hedging your bets.....

I say go all the way, set a minimum search requirement for ATH/SPD/DEF at each position and pick the best guys of the bunch.   I think you'll accidentally get a PG, Scorer and big or two.  Ignore the other stats.

With that being said, FT is important ;)

i would really advise against going this kind of all-in. its fine to be really focused on the strategy you described. however, what you cannot overcome is the law of diminishing returns. plain and simple, that first high-caliber offensive player over zero is SO valuable, there is no strategy in the world that is better off without having that first guy over zero. i think rails is right, 3 high caliber offensive guys is the way to go. try not to have them be awful on defense but honestly in a m2m set you can help hide these guys anyway if you do it right - at least to some extent. 

also, im with rails on the rebounding front. my age-old saying on rebounding is... if you can't rebound, it doesn't really matter if you can do anything else. of course, it depends on the context - that is very true for teams looking to be very successful. but if success is just making the nt and crapping out early, sure, you don't really NEED to have good rebounding. i also think it would be highly unwise to have terrible bh/pass... to me, lp and per affect the shot itself, not really getting a shot. if you have bad per/lp, you better be taking some solid shots. if you have terrible bh/pass, you are going to have poor shot selection, and then, get the double-whammy of bad lp/per.

I understand what you're saying about diminishing returns. And to clarify, when I say "all-in", I don't mean that I would take a guy with a 5 pt advantage in ath if the other guy had a 30 pt advantage in reb or per. What I'm saying is that I want every player to be above-average for ath, spd and def, so I'm going to have aggressive min thresholds for those 3 ratings. But within that remaining pool, I may pick a guy who's also pretty good at another category. So hopefully by the time the team's put together, I've got 3 guys with pretty good reb ratings, a couple with solid per, a couple of true PGs, etc. But if you look at my team averages, what you'll see (hopefully) is a team that's top-notch in 3 categories and average (not abysmal) at most everything else.

I'm also still torn about the off / def sets to play. Lots of great advice from coaches I respect... just not in one direction! I'm leaning towards M2M, because I don't want to have to emphasize stamina for press. On offense, I've never used fastbreak. Does it require as much stamina as press does on defense?

I suggest that you should play fastbreak / M2M.   You can't play slowdown with fastbreak, but it does not require as much stamina/depth as you need to play FCP effectively.  Playing fastbreak will emphasize the athleticism and speed advantage which you should have, given your plan, better than the other offenses.  You may be able to shortchange LP as well; theoretically you're not trying to set up post play anyhow.  On the other hand, you had better have a few guys that can shoot the 3 or gameplanning against you will be too easy.

To make it work, I expect that your team will need to be top 10 in ATH & DEF categories and top 25 in SPD.  

Posted by bhansalid00 on 9/30/2011 10:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coach_billyg on 9/30/2011 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 9/29/2011 4:15:00 PM (view original):
"True. All-in. But you will need to focus on REB/PE/LP/BH/PA too for some of your players."


That isn't ALL-IN.  That is hedging your bets.....

I say go all the way, set a minimum search requirement for ATH/SPD/DEF at each position and pick the best guys of the bunch.   I think you'll accidentally get a PG, Scorer and big or two.  Ignore the other stats.

With that being said, FT is important ;)

i would really advise against going this kind of all-in. its fine to be really focused on the strategy you described. however, what you cannot overcome is the law of diminishing returns. plain and simple, that first high-caliber offensive player over zero is SO valuable, there is no strategy in the world that is better off without having that first guy over zero. i think rails is right, 3 high caliber offensive guys is the way to go. try not to have them be awful on defense but honestly in a m2m set you can help hide these guys anyway if you do it right - at least to some extent. 

also, im with rails on the rebounding front. my age-old saying on rebounding is... if you can't rebound, it doesn't really matter if you can do anything else. of course, it depends on the context - that is very true for teams looking to be very successful. but if success is just making the nt and crapping out early, sure, you don't really NEED to have good rebounding. i also think it would be highly unwise to have terrible bh/pass... to me, lp and per affect the shot itself, not really getting a shot. if you have bad per/lp, you better be taking some solid shots. if you have terrible bh/pass, you are going to have poor shot selection, and then, get the double-whammy of bad lp/per.

I understand what you're saying about diminishing returns. And to clarify, when I say "all-in", I don't mean that I would take a guy with a 5 pt advantage in ath if the other guy had a 30 pt advantage in reb or per. What I'm saying is that I want every player to be above-average for ath, spd and def, so I'm going to have aggressive min thresholds for those 3 ratings. But within that remaining pool, I may pick a guy who's also pretty good at another category. So hopefully by the time the team's put together, I've got 3 guys with pretty good reb ratings, a couple with solid per, a couple of true PGs, etc. But if you look at my team averages, what you'll see (hopefully) is a team that's top-notch in 3 categories and average (not abysmal) at most everything else.

I'm also still torn about the off / def sets to play. Lots of great advice from coaches I respect... just not in one direction! I'm leaning towards M2M, because I don't want to have to emphasize stamina for press. On offense, I've never used fastbreak. Does it require as much stamina as press does on defense?

Stamina matters a lot for both press and fastbreak.  However if you have a very deep team of just athletic quick, defensive players stamina may not be to important.  You technically could run everyone at your deep positions on Fresh and just have 100% rested Athletic, Speedy guys on the court pressing.  I really wouldn't run fastbreak because I tihnk it will be difficult for you to findguys with high enough ratings ATH, SPD, and DEF that will fit your plan, while still having enough points in BH, P to not turn over the ball...couple with that, if they have all those, then their STA is pretty low.

I'd really run the press on defense though.  Your players that you are recruiting with that high ATH, DEF were made for the press, although M2M will work well too I don't think it is completely taking advantage of the scheme you are creating. 

Posted by metsmaniac2 on 10/1/2011 9:56:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bhansalid00 on 9/30/2011 10:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by coach_billyg on 9/30/2011 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 9/29/2011 4:15:00 PM (view original):
"True. All-in. But you will need to focus on REB/PE/LP/BH/PA too for some of your players."


That isn't ALL-IN.  That is hedging your bets.....

I say go all the way, set a minimum search requirement for ATH/SPD/DEF at each position and pick the best guys of the bunch.   I think you'll accidentally get a PG, Scorer and big or two.  Ignore the other stats.

With that being said, FT is important ;)

i would really advise against going this kind of all-in. its fine to be really focused on the strategy you described. however, what you cannot overcome is the law of diminishing returns. plain and simple, that first high-caliber offensive player over zero is SO valuable, there is no strategy in the world that is better off without having that first guy over zero. i think rails is right, 3 high caliber offensive guys is the way to go. try not to have them be awful on defense but honestly in a m2m set you can help hide these guys anyway if you do it right - at least to some extent. 

also, im with rails on the rebounding front. my age-old saying on rebounding is... if you can't rebound, it doesn't really matter if you can do anything else. of course, it depends on the context - that is very true for teams looking to be very successful. but if success is just making the nt and crapping out early, sure, you don't really NEED to have good rebounding. i also think it would be highly unwise to have terrible bh/pass... to me, lp and per affect the shot itself, not really getting a shot. if you have bad per/lp, you better be taking some solid shots. if you have terrible bh/pass, you are going to have poor shot selection, and then, get the double-whammy of bad lp/per.

I understand what you're saying about diminishing returns. And to clarify, when I say "all-in", I don't mean that I would take a guy with a 5 pt advantage in ath if the other guy had a 30 pt advantage in reb or per. What I'm saying is that I want every player to be above-average for ath, spd and def, so I'm going to have aggressive min thresholds for those 3 ratings. But within that remaining pool, I may pick a guy who's also pretty good at another category. So hopefully by the time the team's put together, I've got 3 guys with pretty good reb ratings, a couple with solid per, a couple of true PGs, etc. But if you look at my team averages, what you'll see (hopefully) is a team that's top-notch in 3 categories and average (not abysmal) at most everything else.

I'm also still torn about the off / def sets to play. Lots of great advice from coaches I respect... just not in one direction! I'm leaning towards M2M, because I don't want to have to emphasize stamina for press. On offense, I've never used fastbreak. Does it require as much stamina as press does on defense?

Stamina matters a lot for both press and fastbreak.  However if you have a very deep team of just athletic quick, defensive players stamina may not be to important.  You technically could run everyone at your deep positions on Fresh and just have 100% rested Athletic, Speedy guys on the court pressing.  I really wouldn't run fastbreak because I tihnk it will be difficult for you to findguys with high enough ratings ATH, SPD, and DEF that will fit your plan, while still having enough points in BH, P to not turn over the ball...couple with that, if they have all those, then their STA is pretty low.

I'd really run the press on defense though.  Your players that you are recruiting with that high ATH, DEF were made for the press, although M2M will work well too I don't think it is completely taking advantage of the scheme you are creating. 

Yeah, I'm seeing that for my strategy, press vs M2M is a matter of risk/reward. Press means I'm taking the added risk of needing to recruit high stamina (higher than M2M, at least). But I'm also getting the added potential reward of forcing more turnovers, in addition to keeping opp FG% low. Tough call.

Now that my test team has been running for 4 full seasons, I thought I'd give an update. I decided to go with motion / press. I wanted FCP to try to take advantage of the ATH / SPD / STA advantage I expected to have over most schools. Here are my records and RPI the past 4 seasons (team had RPIs of 266 and 361 the two seasons before I took over).

66	bhansalid00	27-4	11-0	13-2	3-2	14-2	12	11	A-	NT At-large Bid NT (Sweet 16)
65	bhansalid00	16-12	10-2	6-8	0-2	12-4		46	B-	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid NT (1st Round)
64	bhansalid00	21-8	10-3	10-3	1-2	13-3		62	B-	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid NT (1st Round)
63	bhansalid00	18-11	9-4	8-6	1-1	9-7		92	C	PI (1st Round)

And here's my team average ratings in the 4 key categories, along with their rank in the conf (and nationally if applicable):

ATH: 53 (1st in conf, 15th in D3)
SPD: 52 (4th in conf)
DEF: 52 (2nd in conf, 17th in D3)
STA: 84 (1st in conf and in D3)

So, compared to my initial strategy, it's obvious where I could have done better: I didn't recruit enough speed. I do have 2 underclassmen guards who are going to end up in the 87 - 93 range for SPD, so I'm turning that up a notch. Also, I only had 5 guards this past season. I think I would've been better off with 6 so I could play guards at SF and amp up my SPD advantage.

My ATH, DEF and STA worked out really well for me - my opponents committed 21+ to/gm and 24+ fouls / gm, which was really the main reason for my decent success this year. The ATH also helped my go +6 / gm on the boards, despite a REB avg under 40.

I'm probably going to try this again at a different school in another season or two, but with even more speedy guys. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.

I recently played a guy in DII.  Can't recall the team or even the world off hand, but he was very high in ATH/SPD/DEF while running fastbreak and press.  I wouldn't even look at some of his players if I was recruiting that team.  I generally require 70+ PER or LP from my wings.  His were in their 30s and they were undefeated, ranked 7th and ran me off the court.   Actually it was a good game as I was ranked too, but we talked about this a bit.  It actually changed my thinking so that I go after more ATH/SPD/DEF guys who are only decent in the offensive catagories more than I have in the past.  I still want wings that can shoot the ball or have a decent LP so they go to the hole, but I will take a max 50 PER or 50 LP now if I can get a 70ATH/50SPD with solid DEF.

Posted by bhansalid00 on 3/20/2012 7:52:00 PM (view original):
Now that my test team has been running for 4 full seasons, I thought I'd give an update. I decided to go with motion / press. I wanted FCP to try to take advantage of the ATH / SPD / STA advantage I expected to have over most schools. Here are my records and RPI the past 4 seasons (team had RPIs of 266 and 361 the two seasons before I took over).

66	bhansalid00	27-4	11-0	13-2	3-2	14-2	12	11	A-	NT At-large Bid NT (Sweet 16)
65	bhansalid00	16-12	10-2	6-8	0-2	12-4		46	B-	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid NT (1st Round)
64	bhansalid00	21-8	10-3	10-3	1-2	13-3		62	B-	Conf Champion NT At-large Bid NT (1st Round)
63	bhansalid00	18-11	9-4	8-6	1-1	9-7		92	C	PI (1st Round)

And here's my team average ratings in the 4 key categories, along with their rank in the conf (and nationally if applicable):

ATH: 53 (1st in conf, 15th in D3)
SPD: 52 (4th in conf)
DEF: 52 (2nd in conf, 17th in D3)
STA: 84 (1st in conf and in D3)

So, compared to my initial strategy, it's obvious where I could have done better: I didn't recruit enough speed. I do have 2 underclassmen guards who are going to end up in the 87 - 93 range for SPD, so I'm turning that up a notch. Also, I only had 5 guards this past season. I think I would've been better off with 6 so I could play guards at SF and amp up my SPD advantage.

My ATH, DEF and STA worked out really well for me - my opponents committed 21+ to/gm and 24+ fouls / gm, which was really the main reason for my decent success this year. The ATH also helped my go +6 / gm on the boards, despite a REB avg under 40.

I'm probably going to try this again at a different school in another season or two, but with even more speedy guys. I'll keep you posted on how that goes.

How was your passing ratings?  I run a motion/press with one of my teams and had really good balance of stats across the board, except for passing.  It really showed against the better teams.  My offense would really stall.  Passing is critical when running a motion offense.

We had...
ATH: 48
SPD: 47
REB: 43
DEF: 57
LP: 50
PE: 41
BH: 47
STAM: 78

But a pass rating of only 35.

Most of our offense came from offensive rebounds, tip ins, and getting to the FT line... but when we had to actually run motion, it got ugly.  (13-15 assist-TO ratio)

My PAS average was 39, BH was 40. I had sort of the same offense profile as you, danpilgrim - lots of off rebs, tons of FTA (over 1000 last season). But I ran into trouble when my already limited 3PT went cold. I think I went a combined 11-54 on three's in my four losses.

I just learned the hard way how important Stamina is.  I have a team with starters who AVERAGE Ath. 87, Spd 71, Def. 86 with 2 guys off the bench that ring in at 94, 83, 92 and 93, 70, 93 and overall team rating of 783 and couldn't even make the NT. Basically got run off the court - average team stam was only 76, and to your points about passing, pass rating only 63.  (FB converts to Motion in the half court if no FB oppportunity is present).  Redshirting a guy probably didn't help either.  I've decided the rigors of having a top notch 12-man roster make it too difficult to compete with the upper echelon teams, when they can run their teams with 8 and 9 man rosters. So, sadly I'm scrapping the FB/FCP Offense/Defense.  With any other offense, this team would have made the NT.

When I started paying attention to a few mentors here, one of them claimed that all that mattered was ATH/SPD/DEF.  If you had that, then LP and PER didn't matter (not his exact words, his point being that too many coaches place LP/PER over everything else).

But with lots of trial and error since then, I've come to realize that while ATH/SPD/DEF are always my #1 priority in recruiting, it's a mistake to ignore things like LP/PER, BH and STAM.  I'm not always successful in recruiting to my ideal, but in the 5 seasons since I altered my strategy, I've gone from a C prestige non-NT  Div2 program to 127-34 A prestige team with 5 straight NTs and a Sweet 16 last season (hoping to go E8 or FF this year, I don't think I have the players yet to make a bid for the title).  Having athletic players who can defend is very important, but if they can't also score you have an exploitable gap in your lineup.

So, it works but the biggest factor I think in any success is time and experience.  Learn from your mistakes (lord, I've made some doozies) and keep your top priorities in sight at all times.