I used to...punt isn't the right word, but I used to not stress PER in recruiting.  About 6 seasons ago, I changed that and my success rate skyrocketed.  Could be coincidence, but I'm sold on having a couple guys able to shoot the 3.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/14/2012 5:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/14/2012 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Not necessarily.

This doesn't prove that the team wouldn't have been better off had it ran flex/fcp or motion/fcp. fb/fcp puts you in a huge stamina hole. FB has been discussed pretty extensively a while back and is considered by most to be an inferior offensive set. 

not by me. fastbreak is the most misplayed offense out there, so its hard to say where it ranks. IMO, it is possibly the only offense that could trump motion as being the desired offense of the best team possible. i think fb/pr makes a lot of sense in d3 where you can build around ath/spd more and forget about everything else (i mean not really but to a greater extent than any other situation), and fb really leads into that because you really can have lower lp/per with great success, than in any other offense. so pile on the ath/spd/sta and hit the road! although maybe the fatigue is too great an issue, i dont know. its also a very strong offense for rebuilding teams in d1, thinks this observer, although id partner it with zone or man, not press.

if i had 1 more team, it absolutely would be a fb team, i really miss it. i don't think ive ever had as much fun coaching a set of unexceptional players as i did trying to rebuild CSUN in tark with fb/zone. i picked fb/zone because i knew the least about them, but it really was a strong combination and i think i could get more from less than any other system.

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/16/2012 1:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/14/2012 5:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/14/2012 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Not necessarily.

This doesn't prove that the team wouldn't have been better off had it ran flex/fcp or motion/fcp. fb/fcp puts you in a huge stamina hole. FB has been discussed pretty extensively a while back and is considered by most to be an inferior offensive set. 

not by me. fastbreak is the most misplayed offense out there, so its hard to say where it ranks. IMO, it is possibly the only offense that could trump motion as being the desired offense of the best team possible. i think fb/pr makes a lot of sense in d3 where you can build around ath/spd more and forget about everything else (i mean not really but to a greater extent than any other situation), and fb really leads into that because you really can have lower lp/per with great success, than in any other offense. so pile on the ath/spd/sta and hit the road! although maybe the fatigue is too great an issue, i dont know. its also a very strong offense for rebuilding teams in d1, thinks this observer, although id partner it with zone or man, not press.

if i had 1 more team, it absolutely would be a fb team, i really miss it. i don't think ive ever had as much fun coaching a set of unexceptional players as i did trying to rebuild CSUN in tark with fb/zone. i picked fb/zone because i knew the least about them, but it really was a strong combination and i think i could get more from less than any other system.

great way of putting it - and that's exactly what I've done w/ Naismith Staten Island - not too many great players, but I'm recruiting for depth, speed, and stamina, and playing a 12 man rotation every season. Plus, we score a ton of points....it's definitely my most "fun" team, even if it's not my best team.

Posted by udm_mike on 8/16/2012 8:36:00 AM (view original):
I used to...punt isn't the right word, but I used to not stress PER in recruiting.  About 6 seasons ago, I changed that and my success rate skyrocketed.  Could be coincidence, but I'm sold on having a couple guys able to shoot the 3.

its not coincidence. 3 point shooting is overpowered in HD, just like low post based bigs are underpowered. you can definitely get away with less per in the fb, but its very hard in any set to be great without good 3 point shooting.

don't strive to be another Beloit. you'll be sorely disappointed.

Posted by gillispie1 on 8/16/2012 1:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/14/2012 5:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/14/2012 5:32:00 PM (view original):
Not necessarily.

This doesn't prove that the team wouldn't have been better off had it ran flex/fcp or motion/fcp. fb/fcp puts you in a huge stamina hole. FB has been discussed pretty extensively a while back and is considered by most to be an inferior offensive set. 

not by me. fastbreak is the most misplayed offense out there, so its hard to say where it ranks. IMO, it is possibly the only offense that could trump motion as being the desired offense of the best team possible. i think fb/pr makes a lot of sense in d3 where you can build around ath/spd more and forget about everything else (i mean not really but to a greater extent than any other situation), and fb really leads into that because you really can have lower lp/per with great success, than in any other offense. so pile on the ath/spd/sta and hit the road! although maybe the fatigue is too great an issue, i dont know. its also a very strong offense for rebuilding teams in d1, thinks this observer, although id partner it with zone or man, not press.

if i had 1 more team, it absolutely would be a fb team, i really miss it. i don't think ive ever had as much fun coaching a set of unexceptional players as i did trying to rebuild CSUN in tark with fb/zone. i picked fb/zone because i knew the least about them, but it really was a strong combination and i think i could get more from less than any other system.

It seems to me that in the FB (which admittedly I've only been playing for a little over a season) results vary more widely.  My young NYT team in Smith has won games we probably shouldn't have, taken the #1 team to OT, and last night we beat a ranked team by 31.  However, just 5 nights prior we lost to a 100+ RPI team.  I know this is not that crazy, especially for a young team (I took them over last season), but I've seen other FB teams have results that make me think this is a pattern.

Tianyi, is that a reason you consider motion superior?

Basically I think, if I have the best team I want to be running motion.  If I'm playing against a superior team, I want to be running FB.

I consider FB inferior for three reasons:

1) You can only run normal or uptempo, no slowdown. Against a superior team, I would want to run slowdown to reduce the sample size(# of possessions) to increase my chances of winning.

2) FB drains your stamina. FCP drains your stamina. FB/FCP combo significantly drains your stamina. Should one or two guys get into foul trouble, you are guaranteed to play with tired players down the stretch. And since you are only running normal or uptempo, these tired players play more # of possessions under tired, giving your opponents better chances to comeback late in game.

3) End of game adjustments. You would normally want to go slowdown should you be up late (9 points with 3 min, 7 points in 2min, or whatever criteria you use). This isn't available to you.

To be honest, I get giddy when I face a fb/fcp team these days. The strategy to beating them (or at least increase your odds of winning against as superior team) is fairly simple. 

Two other problems comes up for fb/fcp. You have to make stamina a core for your recruiting, on top of ath/spd/def. Adding more criteria to d3 recruiting makes it that much harder. My Menlo team runs motion/fcp and I have pretty much disregarded stamina. My last NC run had a team avg of 75 stamina playing 11 players (6 FR) with my starters going 25-30mpg. This wouldn't be possible in fb/fcp

The other is gameplanning in terms of tempo against weaker teams. You know you have a talent advantage so you should run uptempo, but going uptempo drains your stamina faster than any other sets and magnifies potential fatigue/foul problems. And should your opponent also go uptempo (with him playing to fatigue out your fb/fcp team), you play right into his hands by going uptempo as well.

Wooden D3 is fb/fcp heavy, and these teams have done pretty good. But it doesn't mean that the same teams with the same rosters wouldn't be better with flex/fcp, motion/fcp, or triangle/fcp.

But it's your team so run it however you like. If you fancy fb, go for it. 

Tianyi, keep in mind that you are the 1%.  You might be giddy (and I'm sure your opponents are groaning at having to face you) but I do think FB/FCP works well, at least at the D3 level.

In Allen D3, the dominate program runs FB/FCP, winning NT games at a 78% clip, and in addition to that Rails' return to D3 has already resulted in him winning (yet another) championship with FB/FCP.

To be honest, these are probably the two teams I dread facing most.  While you are correct that there are some disadvantages that allow you to adjust your gameplan while the FB/FCP team cannot, the opposite is also true in that there isn't a whole lot that I can do to adjust a gameplan to avoid a massive amount of turnovers and giving up a lot of easy buckets.

Posted by kujayhawk on 8/17/2012 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Tianyi, keep in mind that you are the 1%.  You might be giddy (and I'm sure your opponents are groaning at having to face you) but I do think FB/FCP works well, at least at the D3 level.

In Allen D3, the dominate program runs FB/FCP, winning NT games at a 78% clip, and in addition to that Rails' return to D3 has already resulted in him winning (yet another) championship with FB/FCP.

To be honest, these are probably the two teams I dread facing most.  While you are correct that there are some disadvantages that allow you to adjust your gameplan while the FB/FCP team cannot, the opposite is also true in that there isn't a whole lot that I can do to adjust a gameplan to avoid a massive amount of turnovers and giving up a lot of easy buckets.

I'm of course making my observations from the perspective that the team facing the fb/fcp team have similar ratings (core or otherwise). If you are way behind in ath/spd/def (which is the case for most of the opponents that faced rdb) then it doesn't really matter what scheme you run. Any D3 program that hits 60ath/60def with spd above 50 is going to be dominant, and go deep with any system. The biggest determinant of success is no doubt recruiting. 

There was a thread a while ago comparing fb/motion/flex/triangle, but I can't find it.

I've been running fb/press combo since I arrived back in season 20 at MBBC.  I consider myself a Rails disciple as I consulted him about the attributes needed and tried to model my squad after his. He is definitely a pioneer of the fb/press combo.

Anyway, after several years (literally) playing this game and that system, I find that I'm still "learning" how to play it.  This current season, I missed the NT for the first time in 31 seasons.  I believe the biggest reason my team struggled was my team stamina.  In my opinion, you need a team stamina approaching 80.  This season's version of MBBC started at an asthmatic 66!  I agree with most of the attributes everyone has mentioned that are essential: ath/spd and stamina.  I also believe you need a team defense rating in the 50's and approaching 60, combined with B or above IQ's.  I agree with tianyi in regards to the lack of options the fb offers.  I would have definitely ran some slow down with this group.

Ultimately, I guess I took a chance on some low stamina guys and it has cost me. Honestly, I've never looked at stamina that much in the past (anyone under 50 was a definite no), but will make it more of a priority in the future.  Another challenge I believe is the influx of great coaching talent in the same general region.  In Wooden d3, there are three full conferences within earshot of each other.  Several of those teams run the fb/press combo or the press and recruit the same types of players.

Posted by norm24 on 8/17/2012 11:54:00 PM (view original):
I've been running fb/press combo since I arrived back in season 20 at MBBC.  I consider myself a Rails disciple as I consulted him about the attributes needed and tried to model my squad after his. He is definitely a pioneer of the fb/press combo.

Anyway, after several years (literally) playing this game and that system, I find that I'm still "learning" how to play it.  This current season, I missed the NT for the first time in 31 seasons.  I believe the biggest reason my team struggled was my team stamina.  In my opinion, you need a team stamina approaching 80.  This season's version of MBBC started at an asthmatic 66!  I agree with most of the attributes everyone has mentioned that are essential: ath/spd and stamina.  I also believe you need a team defense rating in the 50's and approaching 60, combined with B or above IQ's.  I agree with tianyi in regards to the lack of options the fb offers.  I would have definitely ran some slow down with this group.

Ultimately, I guess I took a chance on some low stamina guys and it has cost me. Honestly, I've never looked at stamina that much in the past (anyone under 50 was a definite no), but will make it more of a priority in the future.  Another challenge I believe is the influx of great coaching talent in the same general region.  In Wooden d3, there are three full conferences within earshot of each other.  Several of those teams run the fb/press combo or the press and recruit the same types of players.

hey! i have asthma, and my stamina is only a 5 (unless you are talking in bed, of course). don't be hating on us asthmat-o-trons (which is the politically correct term, duh), you insensitive *****!

p-r-i-c-k gets bleeped out? good lord, what kind of world do we live in now :( a diabetic (diabet-o-tron?) can't ***** their finger? 

Change your forum settings and it won't be.

"To be honest, I get giddy when I face a fb/fcp team these days. The strategy to beating them (or at least increase your odds of winning against as superior team) is fairly simple. "

I get giddy whenever I play a FCP, regardless of what offense I run.  They can't gameplan against you, so you can load up on your best 1 or 2 players and there's nothing they can do about it.  But people were/are too blinded by it being the sky-is-falling-dujour to notice. 

But it really all boils down to fun.  FB/FCP is, by far, the most fun set I currently have or have had in the past.