11/16/2009 11:57 AM Customer Support

Please do not make any posts anywhere about this, but we have found at least one pair of accounts in this league that match. We will be reaching out to these users asking them to explain themselves and to post a message in the chat detailing the situation.

Thanks

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World Chat Post:

11/18/2009 11:40 AM Site Staff

For the sake of clarification, we'd like to let everyone in this world know that we have verified all the accounts in this world are unique and that there are no alias pairs in the world. Still, when it comes to trades, always be objective and approve the ones you think are reasonable and reject the ones you feel are lopsided. That's the point of the veto system. We hope this acknowledgment can help end the bickering and allow everyone to focus on the present and the future of the world and enjoy doing so. The game is supposed to be a break from reality, not an additional frustration. Thank you.

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My response in the ticket:

11/18/2009 12:10 PM

Wait a minute. The post you made in the WC is a direct contradiction to your posting here. Please explain this to me in very great detail. Very great detail. To quote you "we have found at least one pair of accounts in this league that match" and that does not even come close to what you posted in the WC. I want to know who had matching accounts and I want to know what lies they told you to con you out of doing anything about it.
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Their response:

11/18/2009 12:19 PM

We look for accounts that may be aliases. We then reach out to users for an explanation because there are valid instances where both accounts are legitimate and controlled by multiple folks. We also look for trade history between the two accounts. In each instance and with each reply, we can confirm to the best of our ability that each pair is on the up-and-up. No system can be perfect with this, but this is the best we can do with the data we have and the replies we've received.

If there had been any trade history, we would have evaluated each offer (we've done this in other worlds) and we would have removed one or both of the teams from the world.



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My response:

11/18/2009 12:26 PM

That isn't acceptable. Check previous years. I also expect you to post the fact that there are 2 owners (at least to quote you) with the same account. That is the fact, not what you posted.

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Their response:

11/18/2009 5:12 PM

We found several pairs of accounts that could have been the same person. We have verified to the best of our knowledge they are not. We have looked at these accounts in previous seasons for trade activity and it does not exist.

We do not permit cheating on our site. If we see it, we will take action. Nothing in this world indicates there is any cheating going on at the present. If there are any trade patterns in previous seasons you think are questionable, let us know which ones and we will research.

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My response:

11/18/2009 5:50 PM

Several pairs now? I demand to be told who. It is my right as a member of the league to know exactly who is cheating in my league regardless of whether you can prove it. Don't you find it interesting that a league that has had a long history of major turnover and bad, bad trades has "several" pairs of owners that could be the same person, but you can't prove they are because they refused to admit it? We deserve to know exactly who is involved so we can monitor what you guys refuse to do anything about.

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It goes on and on, but this will give you a good idea behind the truth. Admin states that there are multiple pairs of accounts in this world. Multiple pairs. None of these pairs of accounts have announced to the league that their family members or friends are in the league...it has all been kept secret. Suspicious trades have been occurring in this league for 7 seasons. This league has never had less than 8 open franchises at rollover.

Admin doesn't seem to think there's a problem with any of this. They refuse to look into it further and refuse to identify the pairs of accounts so that I can look into it for them. They claim to be against cheating, yet they do little to nothing to actually stop it. They think that if I just walk away from the league that everything will be fine. That is their solution. For the record, I have no problem with frineds or family playing in the same league as long as everybody knows about it. That clearly isn't the case here.

What would you do?

No personal attacks or accusations are allowed in this thread. I'm looking for a solution that isn't look the other way or leave the league, because neither is a real solution. Admin also gave me permission to post this thread.

Have any of these suspicious trades gone through? Or are they usually vetoed?

"I'm looking for a solution that isn't look the other way or leave the league, because neither is a real solution."

Unfortunately, those are your only two solutions. If admin isn't going to reveal who the "linked" accounts are, I don't see how you would go about handling this yourself. You think someone with an alias is going to just reveal themselves for you unless pushed into a corner? They won't. Good luck to you. As a commish myself, I'd be interested in knowing who the accused are. That being said, unless you work for the CIA, you'll likely never find out. Just my two cents.

Quote: Originally Posted By shobob on 11/20/2009Have any of these suspicious trades gone through? Or are they usually vetoed

Some have been vetoed - a lot more since I joined the league and started questioning things. The trade history is downright ugly in some cases. There has been a push from a few owners to get rid of me because I have been outspoken about things.

Quote: Originally Posted By stiller609 on 11/20/2009"I'm looking for a solution that isn't look the other way or leave the league, because neither is a real solution."

Unfortunately, those are your only two solutions. If admin isn't going to reveal who the "linked" accounts are, I don't see how you would go about handling this yourself. You think someone with an alias is going to just reveal themselves for you unless pushed into a corner? They won't. Good luck to you. As a commish myself, I'd be interested in knowing who the accused are. That being said, unless you work for the CIA, you'll likely never find out. Just my two cents

I disagree. There are always other options.

Care to tell us the options?

I've fought the fight. Fortunately for me, the commish didn't want to remove me. I'm sure a few owners would have loved it. You can argue and fight the entire time but, if the commish decides he's had enough, you're done.

It's apparent that ADMIN isn't giving you the information you "demand". Therefore, you're to guess, accuse and hope someone screws up.

So what options do you think are available?

One option is to publicly flame the suspected colluders. This is essentially a scorched earth policy where you're all but guaranteeing the fugly death of the league.

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 11/20/2009
Care to tell us the options?

I've fought the fight. Fortunately for me, the commish didn't want to remove me. I'm sure a few owners would have loved it. You can argue and fight the entire time but, if the commish decides he's had enough, you're done.

It's apparent that ADMIN isn't giving you the information you "demand". Therefore, you're to guess, accuse and hope someone screws up.

So what options do you think are available?

I don't know yet - that's why I'm asking. Let's assume there are 8 questionable pairs of accounts. That leaves 24 owners that are playing against 8. Admin seems to cave to peer pressure all the time, so maybe there's one option there.

When I was named commish of the league this offseason, quite a few owners immediately. Some of them certainly hated my vocal approach, but I'm guessing most if not all of the problem pairs were in the group that . Once aaron_clarke came back to the league and took over the commish job (why admin allowed this I'll never know), suddenly all those guys were willing to come back provided we "ignored the past" league issues. All of this sounds very fishy.

You could always post in WC and ask anyone who is honestly playing with a friend/family member etc. to come forward, no penalties and no problems. If one or more pairs step forward and identify themselves, you could maybe have some peace of mind that this is innocent and not alias-driven. If no one steps forward, that tells you there are probably aliases that are undiscovered, and you can do with that info what you will. Not a perfect solution, but it's a place to start.

Also, when they say they've found several pairs of accounts, it's not neccesarily clear that they mean several in your world, or several overall, one of which happens to be in your world. At least, it's not 100% clear from the bits you've posted.

Once ADMIN said "Go ahead and post this", they removed the public embarrassment hammer.

Here's what I did: I pointed out the extremely lopsided deals for about two seasons if anyone I felt was an offending party posted. There was no doubt that the league was loaded with aliases for the first three seasons. I became public enemy #1(sounds like you're there). But, in order to "clean-up" the world, you have to have support(sounds like you're not there). So, to me, your options are to point out the trades in question. Recruit people who want to help you turn it around. And, maybe, just maybe, the aliases will leave because they'll no longer be allowed to benefit their trade partners.

The problem: I think you'll be booted before you make any headway. It's one thing when 5-6 owners want you gone but you brought 5-6 owners with you when you joined. There's no "him or us" to be had because the world will have 5-6 openings either way.

Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 11/20/2009
You could always post in WC and ask anyone who is honestly playing with a friend/family member etc. to come forward, no penalties and no problems. If one or more pairs step forward and identify themselves, you could maybe have some peace of mind that this is innocent and not alias-driven. If no one steps forward, that tells you there are probably aliases that are undiscovered, and you can do with that info what you will. Not a perfect solution, but it's a place to start.

Also, when they say they've found several pairs of accounts, it's not neccesarily clear that they mean several in your world, or several overall, one of which happens to be in your world. At least, it's not 100% clear from the bits you've posted.

They mean several in that world. And I have posted asking those that are paired to come clean about it. It's not going to happen because none of them are legit and I wouldn't be shocked if they are in other worlds together.

Aliases aren't difficult to figure out. Especially if they're doing it in multiple worlds. Figure it out. Post your results. Out the bastards.

Yup. The converse of what Mike said is that if you can't demonstrate and document it well enough to show it in the forums, then it probably isn't the cause of the world lacking competitive ballance, and you should probably let it be. Look for paired scouting (i.e. one team with HS 5/Col 20 and another with HS 20/Col 5 where both teams seem to select HS and Col guys with high picks, regardless of their scouting budgets), tanked season series, and lopsided trades. Then cross check it against other worlds. If you find evidence, tell us. If not, relax. Maybe they're colluding but they're just not that good at it.

How did this all get started? Was it a complaint by a league member, or a spontaneous investegation by WiS? If it was the latter, they made a real mistake by suggesting cheating was going on without telling you who/how, and then simply declaring there was no proof, and then not even naming the suspects. If they're not going to do anything about it, they shouldn't even raise these kinds of questions, leaving owners feeling cheated without any real recourse. Of course, if this was innitiated by you or another owner, then you must already have some evidence of collusion.

The worst part is, our commissioner has the most suspect trade history.

I just took over this team at the start of this season, and most of my superstars were traded in past seasons in extremely lopsided deals with the current commish. I also somehow ended up with a 64 rated SP who can't get Rookie Leaguers out making 10.4 mil for the next 2 seasons.

Who drew up the contract?? Yup, or current commish.

Lesson: Leave the league.