Or that it needs to be bumped up...
I do think defense rating makes a difference in the m2m.

I had a PF with 80ath, 78Lpst, and 66 Spd

Going against a guy with like 40 ath, 18 spd but 83 DEF.

With only a -1 DEF setting, he went 4-15 against him with no apparent double teams.

With press, it certainly matters less, but m2m, I do think it matters as this is not the first occasion I've seen this happen in either direction. Maybe having DEF mean more to press or zone might help(esp press actually), but m2m it seems fine from my experiences.

your theory may be correct, gd, but citing one example mean absolutely zero to me. I think you would need to show me the summary of at least 20 or 30 games with matchups like this if you are trying to make a point via statistics.

i would want to see where he struggled consistently against good defenders (preferably those with spd/ath to match his). and where he was consistently particularly effective against bad defenders.

So so so small of a sample size it means nothing, very likely can be attributed to rng also.

I have no stats to back it up, but I am seeing a move toward defense mattering more... especially in the press. With ratings being lower across the board--except defense and stamina--it's becoming an extremely specialized game. (NB: I realize this may sound like some tradition lover like Bob Costas bemoaning the state of relief pitching in baseball.) 83 defense can contain a post player with 80 ath and 78 lp, not a guy with 90 ath and 90 lp.

As for the press, it's just a gut feeling. Seemingly everyone in Wooden D3 runs a press, and the guys with better defense ratings have started to edge clear, despite inferior spd, per, reb, etc. Everyone I know that runs a press is changing the way they recruit. I have no evidence to back this up, but as someone who has run a press forever, I've noticed a big enough change that I've had to adapt to it.

Quote: Originally Posted By oldave on 12/01/2009your theory may be correct, gd, but citing one example mean absolutely zero to me. I think you would need to show me the summary of at least 20 or 30 games with matchups like this if you are trying to make a point via statistics

i actually think the sample size for relevance is much more than 20-30 games, it is one of the reasons this game is so frustrating to those who want a 90 defender to stop a 50 shooter in their particular game. I am purely guessing at this number, but I would guess somewhere between 500 and 1000 games for absolute truth to be known. Myabe davis or one of the other stats gurus could chime in, as I said, my number is a guess.

Yeah OR i think you are right on there - It is a lot higher then 20-30 games. I would say a few hundred at the very least to get a good sample size.

Quote: Originally Posted By bradshaw3001 on 12/01/2009I have no stats to back it up, but I am seeing a move toward defense mattering more... especially in the press. With ratings being lower across the board--except defense and stamina--it's becoming an extremely specialized game. (NB: I realize this may sound like some tradition lover like Bob Costas bemoaning the state of relief pitching in baseball.) 83 defense can contain a post player with 80 ath and 78 lp, not a guy with 90 ath and 90 lp.

As for the press, it's just a gut feeling. Seemingly everyone in Wooden D3 runs a press, and the guys with better defense ratings have started to edge clear, despite inferior spd, per, reb, etc. Everyone I know that runs a press is changing the way they recruit. I have no evidence to back this up, but as someone who has run a press forever, I've noticed a big enough change that I've had to adapt to it

DE has always been important for a press, especially as you move up. You can have a good press with just SPD/ATH in DIII or DII, but for truly elite you need at least decent DE as well. For DI (and high DI) you definitely need strong SPD/ATH/DE to run a great press.

Your initial post is misleading.

Western dropped to a -3 in the second half and the defender you mentioned didn't stay on your PF the whole game. Other defenders also played significant minutes. While he has a stamina of 91, your PF played 30 minutes (high for an HD game) and the three defenders that played him played 21, 14 and 16 minutes.

Your PF was 3 for 7 against a -1 and 1 for 8 against a -3.

I would like to hear from a Coach that tried building a Team around great defenders to see how it worked out for them.

Quote: Originally Posted By kspoorman on 12/01/2009I would like to hear from a Coach that tried building a Team around great defenders to see how it worked out for them.

Depending on what level you are talking about the results could varry drastically. It also depends on what you mean by defense, just having a good DE rating does not mean the player is a great defender.

My Southern team in Knight was built around Ath/Speed/Def. It went to the Final Four before I changed jobs. My Or. St. steam in Phelan is also built around Defense...and defense got us from C to B+ prestige. I think you need defense to be successful at a low BCS or mid-major school.

Quote: Originally posted by kspoorman on 12/01/2009I would like to hear from a Coach that tried building a Team around great defenders to see how it worked out for them. 

George fox in iba did it and never did a whole bunch, but wasn't a bad team either. Another coach in div I (Florida st?) did it and was okay, but still gave up like 45% and was nothing special even with 90+ def ratings across the board.

Quote: Originally posted by bradshaw3001 on 12/01/2009I have no stats to back it up, but I am seeing a move toward defense mattering more... especially in the press. With ratings being lower across the board--except defense and stamina--it's becoming an extremely specialized game. (NB: I realize this may sound like some tradition lover like Bob Costas bemoaning the state of relief pitching in baseball.) 83 defense can contain a post player with 80 ath and 78 lp, not a guy with 90 ath and 90 lp.

As for the press, it's just a gut feeling. Seemingly everyone in Wooden D3 runs a press, and the guys with better defense ratings have started to edge clear, despite inferior spd, per, reb, etc. Everyone I know that runs a press is changing the way they recruit. I have no evidence to back this up, but as someone who has run a press forever, I've noticed a big enough change that I've had to adapt to it.

i think part of what you are seeing is, because much of the community undervalues defense (just my feeling, most zone and press coaches do), some of the high defense players who are better than low defense guys are open who are a little better. these are probably being picked up by smart coaches and that's part of why those teams are doing well (the smart coach part).

anyway, i think defense has mattered the same for the press for some time. at least, i haven't changed anything with my perception there. you still can sacrifice it before some other things when you need to (like ath and reb for a big, or spd, bh, pass for a pg, etc), but it definitely matters. the correlation with steals, and also fg%, is pretty clear, and has been for at least a year and a half or so? i would also agree with those who said as you move to higher levels of competition, the need for def increases.

Defense rating means absolutely nothing...for every guy with a great defensive rating and great defensive stats I will show you a guy with low defensive rating and great defensive stats....

Ellison, your southern team went to final four because of spd/ath, defensive rating had nothing to do with it..