thpoughts on whether ozzie smith type SS or Cf's should get into the HBD HOF. how many gold gloves are needed to be worthy if a guy is basically a singles hitter? I think if a guy wins 7 gold gloves or more he should be considered. as long as he hits in the .270's area of course a high stolen base number would make a guy like this a lock IMO

No question. Before the fielding adjustment, top flight CF and SS could prevent 15 or more runs more than their average counterparts. Crudely trying to tranlaste - that would be worth about .100 - .150 OPS or more. More than enough to offset .030 in AVG in my opinion. (assuming a career .300 hitter was HOF worthy)

I wouldn't vote for a guy on defense alone.

Maybe I misread pirates - I didn't think he said, or meant, on defense alone. Depending on the league, a .270's hitter could be league average. If he prevents enough runs to be "dominant" why wouldn't that be worth consideration?

sure if combined with his hitting he was valuable enough...i don't think just being a .300 hitter is HOF worthy though

Quote: Originally posted by dwoolery on 2/07/2010Maybe I misread pirates - I didn't think he said, or meant, on defense alone. Depending on the league, a .270's hitter could be league average. If he prevents enough runs to be "dominant" why wouldn't that be worth consideration?

Sure but .270 is a bad example though. .270 .320 (OBP) .315 (SLG) then no.

.270 doesn't mean jack.

Obviously, you have to consider the whole package. MLB HOF has always prized hitting over defense. Only relatively recently have there been some inductions based mainly on defense(Mazeroski is a good example). We had an owner in Addicted Users who ran our own league HOF. When he would present the nominees I would make sure to consider defense as a part of decision making process.

Quote: Originally posted by torrone on 2/08/2010Obviously, you have to consider the whole package. MLB HOF has always prized hitting over defense. Only relatively recently have there been some inductions based mainly on defense(Mazeroski is a good example). We had an owner in Addicted Users who ran our own league HOF. When he would present the nominees I would make sure to consider defense as a part of decision making process.

Defense needs to be considered but I think Mazeroski is a poor example. He had a memorable home run and is in the collective psyche as the greatest 2B of his era , but that's not enough to outweigh his liabilities at the plate (I'm a Pirate fan btw). Bill James has him at 215 win shares for his career. James considers 300 to be hall of fame worthy.

Maz and his .299 OBP don't do it for me, I don't care how good he was at turning the double play.

I think those guys that hit so many home runs and a certain BA but maybe a tad short could say "but he also won 6 GG".

My biggest question would be about the early years when there was a triple fest and 40+ was commonplace.

If a guy was the best defensive SS or 2B in the league for a long period (7-10 years), I'd put him in the HoF even if he was just average offensively. I think for a HoF C or CF defense is also really important. For other positions great defense might be enough to get me over the top, but the basis of his candidacy should be offense.

If a guy was the best defensive SS or 2B in the league for a long period (7-10 years), I'd put him in the HoF even if he was just average offensively. I think for a HoF C or CF defense is also really important. For other positions great defense might be enough to get me over the top, but the basis of his candidacy should be offense.

For premium position defenders, I would still generally require above-average offensive production for the position even from a superstar defender. I also think there's a huge gap between SS and C/3B/2B/CF. I don't care how good a 3B you are, you're not a HOFer with a #6-7 hole bat at that position. If you're a SS, then possibly.

I also think catchers should get a little extra credit for having lower total numbers (HR, RBI, etc) because they should only be expected to make 120ish starts a year.

For non-premium defenders, I don't care how many GGs you win, it still doesn't count as anything more than a little extra credit if it's a close case, in my opinion.

Omar Vizquel has a career .273/.338/.355 line.

Quote: Originally Posted By mitchrapp on 2/07/2010I wouldn't vote for a guy on defense alone.

What about, if, in the 10 seasons before the world started, he would have been the best defender in the league?