Daisuke Yoon

Anyone? Can it be temper? Can temper have that drastic of an effect? I mean a TEN ERA??????? Really?

I'd understand if it was a small sample size thing but can SSS really explain the difference between where he should be and a 10 ERA? He had a bit of a history of this in the minors as well. Just no idea what is going on with him. Any ideas are appreciated.

He's a y with lower end control and lower end pitches. He throws more pitches in an outing than he should. Add in he's a reliever with 40 IP, and a couple of bad outings destroy an ERA.

A ten era sounds about right for for someone witha 2.27 WHIP and .665 slugging against.

My hunch is that its not his temper as much of lack of good pitches.

And fwiw, with LHPs I pretty much ignore the VsR split. He'll be facing mostly RHBs and that 68s not good enough with those pitches for a ML RP.

If he's the best you have and need him on the ML squad, I'd set his pitch count to 5-10 so when he does come in he'll only face one or two batters. Maybe that way he'll face a higher % of LHBs.

Way too many pitches per outing. There almost seems to be a direct correlation between the number of pitches he throws and the numbers of runs he allows. To me, a guy with 29 stamina should have a max pitch count of 30, and even 25 wouldn't be a bad idea. I've been a lot happier since I started to go very conservative with my relievers' pitch counts. That's factor #1.

Factor #2 is that he's not an excellent pitcher to begin with. 68 vRH will get you into trouble when coupled with 72 control. Toss in the fact that he has no out pitch and there's not much reason to think he's anything special-- a guy with that control/splits combo should at least have a pitch in the high 80's or 90's to balance out the rest of his mediocrity. To be honest I'm shocked that a guy with these ratings was given a $10 million signing bonus unless it was the end of the year and you just had a lot of unspent cash (or your scouts were way off).

Factor #3 is your defense. Virtually everyone you have in the field is below the recommendations for their positions; very difficult to justify complaining about pitchers' performances when you don't care about defense. The only regular starter you have who meets all the recommendations for his position is your fielder. Even your SS (who with his 41/69/40/64/21 batting ratings one would expect to be an excellent fielder) falls slightly below recommendations in glove and arm accuracy. I used to not care about defense either, then I went out and got myself a couple defensive studs and it's been like night and day with my pitching staff. I can't understate how important defense is if you want your pitchers to consistently pitch well.

Factor #4 is luck. No one wants to hear it, but obviously your guy has just been unlucky. Last year's ERA of 5.63 also seems high but is a lot closer to being realistic for his ratings. If he's the best option you have for your bullpen, keep throwing him out there (with lower pitch counts of course) and his ERA will start to even out.

Quote: Originally posted by pb15 on 3/31/2010A ten era sounds about right for for someone witha  2.27 WHIP and .665 slugging against.My hunch is that its not his temper as much of lack of good pitches. And fwiw, with LHPs I pretty much ignore the VsR split. He'll be facing mostly RHBs and that 68s not good enough with those pitches for a ML RP. If he's the best you have and need him on the ML squad, I'd set his pitch count to 5-10 so when he does come in he'll only face one or two batters. Maybe that way he'll face a higher % of LHBs.

Yes, I understand his statistics are terrible. I am looking for WHY. No way he should have a 2+ WHIP and .665 slugging against.

In addition to everything else mentioned above, set his pull rating to 4. If he starts to get in trouble, he gets the hook.

Well, he is young, not fully developed. He has mediocre control, a lower vRH split, and no pitch over 70. He should be pitching in AA this seaosn, AAA next season after his offseason ratings jump, and in the ML the season after.



When you rush prospects this is the result you often get. Live and learn.

Quote: Originally posted by prezuiwf on 3/31/2010Way too many pitches per outing. There almost seems to be a direct correlation between the number of pitches he throws and the numbers of runs he allows. To me, a guy with 29 stamina should have a max pitch count of 30, and even 25 wouldn't be a bad idea. I've been a lot happier since I started to go very conservative with my relievers' pitch counts. That's factor #1.Factor #2 is that he's not an excellent pitcher to begin with. 68 vRH will get you into trouble when coupled with 72 control. Toss in the fact that he has no out pitch and there's not much reason to think he's anything special-- a guy with that control/splits combo should at least have a pitch in the high 80's or 90's to balance out the rest of his mediocrity. To be honest I'm shocked that a guy with these ratings was given a $10 million signing bonus unless it was the end of the year and you just had a lot of unspent cash (or your scouts were way off).Factor #3 is your defense. Virtually everyone you have in the field is below the recommendations for their positions; very difficult to justify complaining about pitchers' performances when you don't care about defense. The only regular starter you have who meets all the recommendations for his position is your fielder. Even your SS (who with his 41/69/40/64/21 batting ratings one would expect to be an excellent fielder) falls slightly below recommendations in glove and arm accuracy. I used to not care about defense either, then I went out and got myself a couple defensive studs and it's been like night and day with my pitching staff. I can't understate how important defense is if you want your pitchers to consistently pitch well.Factor #4 is luck. No one wants to hear it, but obviously your guy has just been unlucky. Last year's ERA of 5.63 also seems high but is a lot closer to being realistic for his ratings. If he's the best option you have for your bullpen, keep throwing him out there (with lower pitch counts of course) and his ERA will start to even out.

#1 - I think you're spot on with this. I've lowered his pitch count and will see how that affects his numbers.

#2 - I really disagree with this. Obviously those ratings are relative to what everyone in the league has and there are plenty pitchers with WAY worse ratings against RH and command and with worse pitchers who have WAY better numbers in this league. This guy: Mariano Bonilla has a sub-4 ERA for instance. A 68 vs. RH isn't great, I agree, but it's DEFINITELY better than a 10 ERA. That I think is undeniable.

And yes he was signed at the end of an IFA period, still given our IFA market I didn't think the price was that outrageous. I probably would have paid 6-8 for him mid-season and felt pretty good about it. I've signed players with way worse ratings who have done much more.

#3 - I hear ya, although I think you overstate my defensive issues a bit. Saying I don't care isn't quite fair. My SS is 83/83/91/82. My CF is 87/81/56/60, my 2B is 87/68/54/63, I often play a guy at 1B who is 75/65/57/53. It's not like I've got 9 DHs out there. Not hardly. And furthermore if defense was the culprit I would be having these issues across the board, wouldn't I? Why would poor defense target ONE pitcher on my team. Most of the rest of my guys have given me performances close to what I would have expected. Yoon's ERA is about 300x what I would expect him to put up.

#4 - I have no problem with luck. It's what makes the game fun and frustrating and real. I just have a hard time believing luck was the only thing making him so terrible.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Like I said, I think you may have hit the nail on the head with his pitch count.

Quote: Originally posted by domiisgod on 3/31/2010Well, he is young, not fully developed.  He has mediocre control, a lower vRH split, and no pitch over 70.  He should be pitching in AA this seaosn, AAA next season after his offseason ratings jump, and in the ML the season after. When you rush prospects this is the result you often get.  Live and learn.

He's pretty close to fully developed. The only things that aren't hitting his projections right now are STA (29 vs. 33 projected), VRH (68 vs. 69), VELO (92 vs. 96), GB/FB, (72 vs. 76) and P1 (70 vs. 73). He signed as a 20 year old and spent 3+ years in the minors. Does that really qualify as rushed??

Quote: Originally Posted By jweiland on 3/31/2010

Quote: Originally posted by prezuiwf on 3/31/2010
Way too many pitches per outing. There almost seems to be a direct correlation between the number of pitches he throws and the numbers of runs he allows. To me, a guy with 29 stamina should have a max pitch count of 30, and even 25 wouldn't be a bad idea. I've been a lot happier since I started to go very conservative with my relievers' pitch counts. That's factor #1.

Factor #2 is that he's not an excellent pitcher to begin with. 68 vRH will get you into trouble when coupled with 72 control. Toss in the fact that he has no out pitch and there's not much reason to think he's anything special-- a guy with that control/splits combo should at least have a pitch in the high 80's or 90's to balance out the rest of his mediocrity. To be honest I'm shocked that a guy with these ratings was given a $10 million signing bonus unless it was the end of the year and you just had a lot of unspent cash (or your scouts were way off).

Factor #3 is your defense. Virtually everyone you have in the field is below the recommendations for their positions; very difficult to justify complaining about pitchers' performances when you don't care about defense. The only regular starter you have who meets all the recommendations for his position is your fielder. Even your SS (who with his 41/69/40/64/21 batting ratings one would expect to be an excellent fielder) falls slightly below recommendations in glove and arm accuracy. I used to not care about defense either, then I went out and got myself a couple defensive studs and it's been like night and day with my pitching staff. I can't understate how important defense is if you want your pitchers to consistently pitch well.

Factor #4 is luck. No one wants to hear it, but obviously your guy has just been unlucky. Last year's ERA of 5.63 also seems high but is a lot closer to being realistic for his ratings. If he's the best option you have for your bullpen, keep throwing him out there (with lower pitch counts of course) and his ERA will start to even out.

#1 - I think you're spot on with this. I've lowered his pitch count and will see how that affects his numbers.

#2 - I really disagree with this. Obviously those ratings are relative to what everyone in the league has and there are plenty pitchers with WAY worse ratings against RH and command and with worse pitchers who have WAY better numbers in this league. This guy: Mariano Bonilla has a sub-4 ERA for instance. A 68 vs. RH isn't great, I agree, but it's DEFINITELY better than a 10 ERA. That I think is undeniable.

And yes he was signed at the end of an IFA period, still given our IFA market I didn't think the price was that outrageous. I probably would have paid 6-8 for him mid-season and felt pretty good about it. I've signed players with way worse ratings who have done much more.

#3 - I hear ya, although I think you overstate my defensive issues a bit. Saying I don't care isn't quite fair. My SS is 83/83/91/82. My CF is 87/81/56/60, my 2B is 87/68/54/63, I often play a guy at 1B who is 75/65/57/53. It's not like I've got 9 DHs out there. Not hardly. And furthermore if defense was the culprit I would be having these issues across the board, wouldn't I? Why would poor defense target ONE pitcher on my team. Most of the rest of my guys have given me performances close to what I would have expected. Yoon's ERA is about 300x what I would expect him to put up.

#4 - I have no problem with luck. It's what makes the game fun and frustrating and real. I just have a hard time believing luck was the only thing making him so terrible.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Like I said, I think you may have hit the nail on the head with his pitch count

The point is that all 4 of those factors are contributing to his high ERA. I didn't say luck was the only reason or that his ratings were the only reason, but those things together will all conspire to lower the guy's effectiveness.

I agree that a 10+ ERA is way too high. That's why #4 probably has more to do with it than the other factors. But when he's out there for too many pitches, AND his ratings are mediocre (sorry, we have to agree to disagree) AND nearly all of your fielders are statistically below-average, bad luck will compound that much more. Just my opinion; hopefully lowering his pitch counts solves some of your problems.

A) anyone who's saying he doesn't have BL control or splits should be taken out and horsewhipped. He does.

B) anyone who's say he has BL RP pitches should be taken out and horsewhipped. He doesn't.

C) anyone who lets him throw more than 25 pitches per game should be taken out and horsewhipped. He shouldn't.

Hope this helps.

Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 3/31/2010A) anyone who's saying he doesn't have BL control or splits should be taken out and horsewhipped.  He does.B) anyone who's say he has BL RP pitches should be taken out and horsewhipped.  He doesn't.C)  anyone who lets him throw more than 25 pitches per game should be taken out and horsewhipped.  He shouldn't.Hope this helps.

It does help. But point B) is confusing me. Are you missing a word there?

No. That's the way Mike talks.

As a related question, how many pitches do you generally let guys throw? I was under the impression guys could throw 1-1.2x their STA. What do you guys generally go with? This thread makes it appear it's more like .8x their STA, which seems low.

Quote: Originally posted by tecwrg on 3/31/2010No.  That's the way Mike talks.

Fair point. What does he mean, then. That Yoon doesn't have sufficient pitches for a major league reliever?