When HBD started, there were numerous significant flaws.  WIS has tended to numerous of them, including relief pitchers' stamina.

But relief pitcher quality was also bad then and after all these season and all these years, it is still... sharply lacking, compared to RL MLB.

Evidence is there for all to see.  Just look at the stats of those who have the most saves or games pitched.

Lance Woolf & Fonzie Wayne (Career leader in ERA in Major Leagues!) say "Hi".....I think maybe you've had some issues, but most of my teams have extremely solid bullpens and usually do (not counting the injuries to my ML staff in Major Leagues this season). In short, where would I find this evidence? Even my lesser teams in Clarkson and such have had good bullpens.

I've never understood the stamina cap in HBD.  There isn't a pitcher in the world who can't throw six or seven innings if stretched out over time and conditioned properly.

Frankly, almost every ML closer was starter at some point in the minors.  Huston Street is the only one I can think of off the top of my head who wasn't. 

I think it's ridiculous that people top out at 10 or 20 stamina.

Exactly what is Arlen looking for?

I see a ton of MLB short relievers (set up and the occasional closer) who tend to walk a lot of hitters, 1 walk (or more) per 2 IP's.  HBD owners tend to stay away from low-control pitchers to use in high-leverage situations.  So maybe the problem is less with the HBD pitchers and more with what HBD owners tend to want and use.

I have no problems with relief pitchers on any of my teams.  I find that there are always plenty of low dur/stam, high skill guys to go around.

Posted by pstrnutbag44 on 10/31/2010 6:29:00 PM (view original):
Lance Woolf & Fonzie Wayne (Career leader in ERA in Major Leagues!) say "Hi".....I think maybe you've had some issues, but most of my teams have extremely solid bullpens and usually do (not counting the injuries to my ML staff in Major Leagues this season). In short, where would I find this evidence? Even my lesser teams in Clarkson and such have had good bullpens.

I see your adequate bullpen and raise you Pedro Rosario, Willie Amaro, and company.

Lopez  and Stieb have been pretty good for me.  

Posted by isack24 on 10/31/2010 6:36:00 PM (view original):
I've never understood the stamina cap in HBD.  There isn't a pitcher in the world who can't throw six or seven innings if stretched out over time and conditioned properly.

Frankly, almost every ML closer was starter at some point in the minors.  Huston Street is the only one I can think of off the top of my head who wasn't. 

I think it's ridiculous that people top out at 10 or 20 stamina.

Trevor Hoffman was, I think, a shortstop. 

I just signed this guy:  [URL=http://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx?pid=1892257]Bobby Floyd[/URL].  And he'll be joining this guy -- [URL=http://www.whatifsports.com/hbd/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx?pid=2407846]Roger Shelby[/URL]. 

Posted by tedwmoore on 10/31/2010 10:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by isack24 on 10/31/2010 6:36:00 PM (view original):
I've never understood the stamina cap in HBD.  There isn't a pitcher in the world who can't throw six or seven innings if stretched out over time and conditioned properly.

Frankly, almost every ML closer was starter at some point in the minors.  Huston Street is the only one I can think of off the top of my head who wasn't. 

I think it's ridiculous that people top out at 10 or 20 stamina.

Trevor Hoffman was, I think, a shortstop. 

As a Brewer fan, I don't consider him a closer at this point, but he was a SS in college.  He did start 12 games in the minors.

Posted by tecwrg on 10/31/2010 6:41:00 PM (view original):
Exactly what is Arlen looking for?

I see a ton of MLB short relievers (set up and the occasional closer) who tend to walk a lot of hitters, 1 walk (or more) per 2 IP's.  HBD owners tend to stay away from low-control pitchers to use in high-leverage situations.  So maybe the problem is less with the HBD pitchers and more with what HBD owners tend to want and use.

Ibid.: "Evidence is there for all to see.  Just look at the stats of those who have the most saves or games pitched."

Are you looking for secret codes, tecwrg?  NLP?

Just view the Games Pitched, or Saves leaders in HBD seasons and compare their ERA's, WHIP, etc. with the same, for MLB. 

The truth is in there.

Posted by ArlenWilliam on 10/31/2010 11:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/31/2010 6:41:00 PM (view original):
Exactly what is Arlen looking for?

I see a ton of MLB short relievers (set up and the occasional closer) who tend to walk a lot of hitters, 1 walk (or more) per 2 IP's.  HBD owners tend to stay away from low-control pitchers to use in high-leverage situations.  So maybe the problem is less with the HBD pitchers and more with what HBD owners tend to want and use.

Ibid.: "Evidence is there for all to see.  Just look at the stats of those who have the most saves or games pitched."

Are you looking for secret codes, tecwrg?  NLP?

Just view the Games Pitched, or Saves leaders in HBD seasons and compare their ERA's, WHIP, etc. with the same, for MLB. 

The truth is in there.

Sounds like you want us to do your research to support your hypothesis

Posted by ArlenWilliam on 10/31/2010 11:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/31/2010 6:41:00 PM (view original):
Exactly what is Arlen looking for?

I see a ton of MLB short relievers (set up and the occasional closer) who tend to walk a lot of hitters, 1 walk (or more) per 2 IP's.  HBD owners tend to stay away from low-control pitchers to use in high-leverage situations.  So maybe the problem is less with the HBD pitchers and more with what HBD owners tend to want and use.

Ibid.: "Evidence is there for all to see.  Just look at the stats of those who have the most saves or games pitched."

Are you looking for secret codes, tecwrg?  NLP?

Just view the Games Pitched, or Saves leaders in HBD seasons and compare their ERA's, WHIP, etc. with the same, for MLB. 

The truth is in there.

In HBD, I reserve the closer role (when I use it at all) for the RP that isn't good enough to log many IP for me as a setup man. 

Take a look at my Setup A guy Rosario and then find me a ML RP that can hold his jock, even at half the IP.

Category	Player A	Player B
IP	692.2	1150.0
WHIP	0.91	1.00
ERA	1.69	2.23
K/9	9.2	8.2
BB/9	2.3	2.1
HR/9	0.5	0.5
K/BB	4.01	3.94

There is Rosario against the very best of the best in RL (Mariano Rivera).

The truth is right here - you just have no interest in seeing it.

Posted by ArlenWilliam on 10/31/2010 11:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/31/2010 6:41:00 PM (view original):
Exactly what is Arlen looking for?

I see a ton of MLB short relievers (set up and the occasional closer) who tend to walk a lot of hitters, 1 walk (or more) per 2 IP's.  HBD owners tend to stay away from low-control pitchers to use in high-leverage situations.  So maybe the problem is less with the HBD pitchers and more with what HBD owners tend to want and use.

Ibid.: "Evidence is there for all to see.  Just look at the stats of those who have the most saves or games pitched."

Are you looking for secret codes, tecwrg?  NLP?

Just view the Games Pitched, or Saves leaders in HBD seasons and compare their ERA's, WHIP, etc. with the same, for MLB. 

The truth is in there.

Have you missed some of the players posted? Why are you ignoring all of that evidence? Are you aware that the best bullpen strategy, from my experience, is to not stick to silly notions like using a dedicated Closer (Saves is an extremely poor way to look up RP effectiveness!)? So, if by "truth" you mean cherry-picked stats viewed in an extremely distorted perspective, I suppose you may be on to something. Aside from that, maybe you need to look into YOUR usage (and others), and find where they are failing in comparison to some of the evidence put forth to you here, by your fellow gamers. Good luck.

Posted by ArlenWilliam on 10/31/2010 11:44:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 10/31/2010 6:41:00 PM (view original):
Exactly what is Arlen looking for?

I see a ton of MLB short relievers (set up and the occasional closer) who tend to walk a lot of hitters, 1 walk (or more) per 2 IP's.  HBD owners tend to stay away from low-control pitchers to use in high-leverage situations.  So maybe the problem is less with the HBD pitchers and more with what HBD owners tend to want and use.

Ibid.: "Evidence is there for all to see.  Just look at the stats of those who have the most saves or games pitched."

Are you looking for secret codes, tecwrg?  NLP?

Just view the Games Pitched, or Saves leaders in HBD seasons and compare their ERA's, WHIP, etc. with the same, for MLB. 

The truth is in there.

If one is going to make a claim that something is "broken", one should be prepared to offer solid evidence with specific examples, and be prepared to back up their claims with a credible argument that actually incorporates the examples/evidence.

Throwing out vague statements and then running and hiding behind a tree in the hope that somebody else will argue your case for you is not the way to put any credibility behind your "claims".