I'd have guessed 8 or 9, but yeah, a 10 is a little bit of a screwjob. I still think they overvalue CT performance.

screw job

I think your loss at Vanderbilt ruined your season.

yeah, the early CT loss was the culprit. I once went from a bubble team to a #3 seed after winning my CT

Perhaps related, perhaps off-topic - 

I have no experience at D1, but how in the world is your SOS 22 with that schedule? Do coaches not schedule up OOC in D1?

For comparison, the #21 SOS in Tark D3 (#22 is a sim) played 4 top 20 teams in OOC (2 home, 2 away) and only 1 team with an RPI over 100 (119). Even counting conference play, you had only 2 top 20 teams (1 home, 1 away) and you had a couple of relatively weak teams (by comparison) in just your OOC (162, 220, 143, 173).

What you played just doesn't seem like it should be a #22 SOS. Perhaps the calculation is done differently for seeding and the (weaker to my eye) schedule reflects that? (Though even given that, a 10 does seem low.)

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Perhaps related, perhaps off-topic - 

I have no experience at D1, but how in the world is your SOS 22 with that schedule? Do coaches not schedule up OOC in D1?

For comparison, the #21 SOS in Tark D3 (#22 is a sim) played 4 top 20 teams in OOC (2 home, 2 away) and only 1 team with an RPI over 100 (119). Even counting conference play, you had only 2 top 20 teams (1 home, 1 away) and you had a couple of relatively weak teams (by comparison) in just your OOC (162, 220, 143, 173).

What you played just doesn't seem like it should be a #22 SOS. Perhaps the calculation is done differently for seeding and the (weaker to my eye) schedule reflects that? (Though even given that, a 10 does seem low.)

SOS is based on wins. 2/3 your opponents win total + 1/3 your opponents' opponent's win total. Home/away affect your RPI via home wins count less than away wins, and home loss counts more than away loss. 

This guy's schedule is good for SOS in that his opponents are almost all above .500, with the worst 2 teams at 7-20. Pac Lutheran's SOS is being dragged down by by those 0-12, 4-8, and 5-8 teams he just faced in conference. 

Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/13/2011 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Perhaps related, perhaps off-topic - 

I have no experience at D1, but how in the world is your SOS 22 with that schedule? Do coaches not schedule up OOC in D1?

For comparison, the #21 SOS in Tark D3 (#22 is a sim) played 4 top 20 teams in OOC (2 home, 2 away) and only 1 team with an RPI over 100 (119). Even counting conference play, you had only 2 top 20 teams (1 home, 1 away) and you had a couple of relatively weak teams (by comparison) in just your OOC (162, 220, 143, 173).

What you played just doesn't seem like it should be a #22 SOS. Perhaps the calculation is done differently for seeding and the (weaker to my eye) schedule reflects that? (Though even given that, a 10 does seem low.)

SOS is based on wins. 2/3 your opponents win total + 1/3 your opponents' opponent's win total. Home/away affect your RPI via home wins count less than away wins, and home loss counts more than away loss. 

This guy's schedule is good for SOS in that his opponents are almost all above .500, with the worst 2 teams at 7-20. Pac Lutheran's SOS is being dragged down by by those 0-12, 4-8, and 5-8 teams he just faced in conference. 

SOS is based *solely* on wins? That is, the quality of those wins (either by ranking, RPI, or something else) doesn't matter?

If that's the case, it seems like it'd be pretty easy to "game" the system and get yourself a high SOS without playing any truly good teams (upperclass-laden sims with weak vs.-sim schedules).

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/13/2011 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Perhaps related, perhaps off-topic - 

I have no experience at D1, but how in the world is your SOS 22 with that schedule? Do coaches not schedule up OOC in D1?

For comparison, the #21 SOS in Tark D3 (#22 is a sim) played 4 top 20 teams in OOC (2 home, 2 away) and only 1 team with an RPI over 100 (119). Even counting conference play, you had only 2 top 20 teams (1 home, 1 away) and you had a couple of relatively weak teams (by comparison) in just your OOC (162, 220, 143, 173).

What you played just doesn't seem like it should be a #22 SOS. Perhaps the calculation is done differently for seeding and the (weaker to my eye) schedule reflects that? (Though even given that, a 10 does seem low.)

SOS is based on wins. 2/3 your opponents win total + 1/3 your opponents' opponent's win total. Home/away affect your RPI via home wins count less than away wins, and home loss counts more than away loss. 

This guy's schedule is good for SOS in that his opponents are almost all above .500, with the worst 2 teams at 7-20. Pac Lutheran's SOS is being dragged down by by those 0-12, 4-8, and 5-8 teams he just faced in conference. 

SOS is based *solely* on wins? That is, the quality of those wins (either by ranking, RPI, or something else) doesn't matter?

If that's the case, it seems like it'd be pretty easy to "game" the system and get yourself a high SOS without playing any truly good teams (upperclass-laden sims with weak vs.-sim schedules).

That formula means the quality of wins kind of matter too. First of all, if you play a schedule full of 450 rated sim teams, your SOS will be terrible because those Sim teams won't win many games.

I know, once in a while, a SIM team will get 20+ wins since they played all Sim teams anyway, but the formula is 2/3*your opponent's wins + 1/3 your opponent's opponent's wins. 

If your opponent got 20 wins by beating all 0-20 teams, your SOS will still be bad since you get 0 from the "1/3" part of the equation. 

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/13/2011 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Perhaps related, perhaps off-topic - 

I have no experience at D1, but how in the world is your SOS 22 with that schedule? Do coaches not schedule up OOC in D1?

For comparison, the #21 SOS in Tark D3 (#22 is a sim) played 4 top 20 teams in OOC (2 home, 2 away) and only 1 team with an RPI over 100 (119). Even counting conference play, you had only 2 top 20 teams (1 home, 1 away) and you had a couple of relatively weak teams (by comparison) in just your OOC (162, 220, 143, 173).

What you played just doesn't seem like it should be a #22 SOS. Perhaps the calculation is done differently for seeding and the (weaker to my eye) schedule reflects that? (Though even given that, a 10 does seem low.)

SOS is based on wins. 2/3 your opponents win total + 1/3 your opponents' opponent's win total. Home/away affect your RPI via home wins count less than away wins, and home loss counts more than away loss. 

This guy's schedule is good for SOS in that his opponents are almost all above .500, with the worst 2 teams at 7-20. Pac Lutheran's SOS is being dragged down by by those 0-12, 4-8, and 5-8 teams he just faced in conference. 

SOS is based *solely* on wins? That is, the quality of those wins (either by ranking, RPI, or something else) doesn't matter?

If that's the case, it seems like it'd be pretty easy to "game" the system and get yourself a high SOS without playing any truly good teams (upperclass-laden sims with weak vs.-sim schedules).

that is reinsel's strategy, he tries to get everyone else in our conference to do that every season as well.

5-6 vs. RPI 1-50
4-1 vs. RPI 51-100
9-1 vs. RPI 101-200
2-0 vs. RPI 201+

It doesn't really look like a 22nd SOS because there are no really bad teams on the list.  There are 2 games vs. 201+ RPI teams.  Played 11 top 50 teams and mostly won at home (3-2), and mostly lost on the road/neutral (2-4).  The losses to RPI 72 and 106 were on the road. 

SOS is based purely on (2*opponents winning pct + opponents opponent's winning pct.)/3

I'm just trying to understand why I was so underseeded vs. my RPI.  I don't think I really gamed the RPI system, I had 4 home and 6 away games, so maybe that was a tiny effect.

And VandyDave is 100% right, avoiding playing really bad teams while loading up on mediocre teams that I think I have a good chance of winning against has been my strategy noncon wise.  The SEC is tough enough. 

Yeah.  I think the ideal non-con for any team in D3 (it appears that's what you play, zbrent) is full of second-tier humans in ghost conferences.  I don't really like to do that because it's not fun, but that's one way to end up with a strong SoS and still win a lot games.

I don't know how the seeding process works, but it really shouldn't consider both SoS and RPI, because then they're basically double dipping on SoS.  Frankly, RPI is brutally flawed in real life, but it's probably the best they can do here. 

Posted by vandydave on 1/13/2011 1:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 1/13/2011 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 1/13/2011 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Perhaps related, perhaps off-topic - 

I have no experience at D1, but how in the world is your SOS 22 with that schedule? Do coaches not schedule up OOC in D1?

For comparison, the #21 SOS in Tark D3 (#22 is a sim) played 4 top 20 teams in OOC (2 home, 2 away) and only 1 team with an RPI over 100 (119). Even counting conference play, you had only 2 top 20 teams (1 home, 1 away) and you had a couple of relatively weak teams (by comparison) in just your OOC (162, 220, 143, 173).

What you played just doesn't seem like it should be a #22 SOS. Perhaps the calculation is done differently for seeding and the (weaker to my eye) schedule reflects that? (Though even given that, a 10 does seem low.)

SOS is based on wins. 2/3 your opponents win total + 1/3 your opponents' opponent's win total. Home/away affect your RPI via home wins count less than away wins, and home loss counts more than away loss. 

This guy's schedule is good for SOS in that his opponents are almost all above .500, with the worst 2 teams at 7-20. Pac Lutheran's SOS is being dragged down by by those 0-12, 4-8, and 5-8 teams he just faced in conference. 

SOS is based *solely* on wins? That is, the quality of those wins (either by ranking, RPI, or something else) doesn't matter?

If that's the case, it seems like it'd be pretty easy to "game" the system and get yourself a high SOS without playing any truly good teams (upperclass-laden sims with weak vs.-sim schedules).

that is reinsel's strategy, he tries to get everyone else in our conference to do that every season as well.

ding ding ding!

i try to get everyone else in my conference to do that every season too :)

Posted by isack24 on 1/13/2011 4:30:00 PM (view original):
Yeah.  I think the ideal non-con for any team in D3 (it appears that's what you play, zbrent) is full of second-tier humans in ghost conferences.  I don't really like to do that because it's not fun, but that's one way to end up with a strong SoS and still win a lot games.

I don't know how the seeding process works, but it really shouldn't consider both SoS and RPI, because then they're basically double dipping on SoS.  Frankly, RPI is brutally flawed in real life, but it's probably the best they can do here. 

That's interesting.

I've definitely been doing it "wrong" in that (except this past season when someone was babysitting the term during scheduling) I've basically looked over the teams that I thought had the best chance to win the NT and scheduled them if possible. It rarely includes teams in ghost conferences, so that explains why my SOS/RPI is never among the elite before the post-season begins, even if I had decent success against really good teams/coaches.

That said, the "ideal" doesn't seem like nearly as much fun, so I guess I'll keep doing it my way (but at least now I know why I end up where I am - thanks!)

isack - "Frankly, RPI is brutally flawed in real life, but it's probably the best they can do here. " - agree on the first part, strongly disagree on the second.