Name	GPA	FG%	FT%	ATH	SPD	REB	DEF	BLK	LP	PER	BH	P	WE	ST	DU	TOT
#1	2	34.5	62.5	65	15	66	53	68	29	1	21	8	48	62	34	470
potential			high	avg	low	high	high	high	high	low	low	high		avg	low
#2	2.43	70	65.3	45	14	74	25	68	71	1	7	8	48	62	49	472
potential			avg	low	low	high	avg	avg	low	avg	high	avg		high	avg

Can I ask why you would've taken #2 in a heartbeat? FWIW, I go the other direction almost as quickly (assuming no high-highs for either player).

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/1/2011 3:55:00 PM (view original):
Can I ask why you would've taken #2 in a heartbeat? FWIW, I go the other direction almost as quickly (assuming no high-highs for either player).

+1

#1 is so much better than #2. gonna be 75 ath vs 45, spd is a wash. Then you throw in the huge def/blk edge he's gonna have. 

I'm guessing he would have taken #2 due to the LP. I'm with the #1 camp as well.

Posted by dacj501 on 2/1/2011 4:30:00 PM (view original):
I'm guessing he would have taken #2 due to the LP. I'm with the #1 camp as well.

Same here.  I don't think LP is that important *IF* you don't also have good ATH and the offensive IQ to go with it.

I've been on a 2-week long crash course on "things I've done wrong so far", and that's the first thing that jumps out at me.  I'd go with #1 every time.

Here's the PF who started for me all last year and averaged 9.5 ppg in 28.7 minutes.  But if I had it to do over again, his 43 ATH and 34 DEF would be completely unacceptable (I'm in D2).  His replacement in another season or so may not have 79 LP, but he'll be a much better athlete and I'll bet he'll score more, as well.

James Oberle - Abilene Christian

It's taken me about 6 seasons or so to realize how much better the first guy is. I used to be attracted to high LP in bigs, but slowly realized that its useless without high ath.

I disagree with everyone who says that ATH is the end-all/be-all for bigs.  It has to be decent, but in D3 in the right system you can sometimes get away with lower ATH.  Nathan Carroll had a great career for Rochester and never got his athleticism to 40.  He started in the upper 20s and then went to the mid- and upper-30s as an upperclassman.  He had 80s REB as a freshman, went to 100 by his junior year and 99 senior.  LP and BLK started upper 70s and went to low 90s.  He had speed around 40 and good BH and Pass for a D3 big.  So basically what I'm saying is that if they're good at literally everything else a big can have success in a triangle/zone without being exceptionally athletic.  That being said, I don't think guy #2 is talented enough to warrant taking him over guy #1.  The only reason I might swing towards #2 is because of the stamina difference, which may or may not end up being significant.

Sam Hamilton isn't even as good as Carroll was but last year was CPOY in a D2 conference with 9 human-coached teams.  Granted a bunch of them are in Hawaii and Alaska, so the talent is a little thinned out compared to other conferences with as many human coaches...

i had a center in d3 with ath in the teens, rebounding and low post in the 90's. very steady player for his career for a borderline tournament team but that was it. maybe could have won a title with him as the 4th or 5th best player on the team when he's a senior.

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/1/2011 5:03:00 PM (view original):
I disagree with everyone who says that ATH is the end-all/be-all for bigs.  It has to be decent, but in D3 in the right system you can sometimes get away with lower ATH.  Nathan Carroll had a great career for Rochester and never got his athleticism to 40.  He started in the upper 20s and then went to the mid- and upper-30s as an upperclassman.  He had 80s REB as a freshman, went to 100 by his junior year and 99 senior.  LP and BLK started upper 70s and went to low 90s.  He had speed around 40 and good BH and Pass for a D3 big.  So basically what I'm saying is that if they're good at literally everything else a big can have success in a triangle/zone without being exceptionally athletic.  That being said, I don't think guy #2 is talented enough to warrant taking him over guy #1.  The only reason I might swing towards #2 is because of the stamina difference, which may or may not end up being significant.

I don't think anyone's said ATH was the "end-all/be-all". (I actually said, quoting "I don't think LP is that important *IF* you don't also have good ATH and the offensive IQ to go with it.")  I think some of us are saying that it's more important than LP.  But technically, good ratings in both categories make for a better player.  Add in IQ, too, because it doesn't matter how Athletic a player is, if he doesn't know how to run the sets his performance is going to be impacted negatively.

Carroll played 23 minutes per game and only averaged 12 ppg, so either he didn't get enough distro or he didn't look to score much (with 8 reb per game I'm not sure I'd care how much he scored, frankly) .  He's a decent D3 player, but I don't know how good of an example he is to support your point.

Here's the opposite extreme of this discussion.  I'm adding D3 Bethany (Naismith) in a couple of weeks.  Looking over the returning roster, I find this guy:

David King, Bethany

Decent rebounding and LP for a D3 freshman, but he has 3 ATH and 3 SPD.  I wonder if he can even get up the floor before the shot clock expires (also note that Bethany plays Press/FB).   Right now I plan on cutting him for no other reason than his ATH/SPD.  Surely there's other players around there with equivalent LP, DEF, etc., ratings and better ATH!

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/1/2011 3:55:00 PM (view original):
Can I ask why you would've taken #2 in a heartbeat? FWIW, I go the other direction almost as quickly (assuming no high-highs for either player).

I would've taken #2 because of the huge difference in LP.  I'm thinking I might've been wrong all this time.

Posted by ethan66 on 2/1/2011 5:39:00 PM (view original):
Here's the opposite extreme of this discussion.  I'm adding D3 Bethany (Naismith) in a couple of weeks.  Looking over the returning roster, I find this guy:

David King, Bethany

Decent rebounding and LP for a D3 freshman, but he has 3 ATH and 3 SPD.  I wonder if he can even get up the floor before the shot clock expires (also note that Bethany plays Press/FB).   Right now I plan on cutting him for no other reason than his ATH/SPD.  Surely there's other players around there with equivalent LP, DEF, etc., ratings and better ATH!

That guy is awful in any system, particularly FB/Press.  I have to say that I don't think you know what you're talking about on Carroll.  Averaging 12+ PPG over a 4-year career is actually quite high...  I think he's the fourth leading scorer in school history (32 seasons) in addition to being the leading rebounder and up there in shot blocking.  He would have scored more if he hadn't played the same 4 seasons as the 3rd and 5th leading scorers in school history, 2 guards who shot over 42 and 45 percent from beyond the arc.

Posted by kucewicz on 2/1/2011 5:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by zbrent716 on 2/1/2011 3:55:00 PM (view original):
Can I ask why you would've taken #2 in a heartbeat? FWIW, I go the other direction almost as quickly (assuming no high-highs for either player).

I would've taken #2 because of the huge difference in LP.  I'm thinking I might've been wrong all this time.

I certainly wouldn't lean that way, particularly because by senior year, that huge difference in LP will be cut down a ton. By then it will be 15 points, and perhaps even less, and with #1's ath advantage, they'd be equal (at worst) on offensive end. Couple that with the big edge #1 gives on defense and it's a pretty easy cal IMO.