Not sure if this subject applies here, but I couldn't figure out where else to put this.

One of the progressives I'm in which has 16 teams, is approaching the 1961-62 seasons where MLB expanded by 4 teams.  We've had some preliminary discussions about expansion and I was wondering if other SIM members had gone through the same thing with their league.

I am asking and encouraging anyone who has, to post here.  Please explain how you did it, # or protected players, draft order, salary caps, whatever...and then how effective your system was or wasn't in bringing the expansion clubs into parity with the original 16.  Feel free to include any reactions from the ownership, pro or con.

I think this could help us and maybe help others down the road.

Thanks.

bump

I was one of four "new" expansion owners in EEPL, which expanded from 16 to 20 teams for 1969 season. After much discussion, original teams were allowed to keep 15 players (including DL) then we had an expansion draft for rest of players available. The 4 of us got together for a few evenings and knocked it out. We were then given 1st 4 picks in 1969 draft. I think there was a random order to expansion draft (snake) and was reversed for '69 draft order. Example--I drew 2nd slot in expansion draft so got 3rd slot in regular draft. In my opinion, after 5 seasons we are still a bit behind average, but have had 2 winning seasons including a 90-win playoff team. Going into 1974 draft the 4 of us are picking 1, 5, 6, 14. 

Sitemail commish shadow35 and he may allow you access to private forum if you want to check out forum discussion leading up to expansion--I think it's still there. The pickings were pretty slim for expansion draft in 1969 so those #s wouldn't work for 1962. It was a difficult balance to build a team with 1 eye on the future yet put enough PAs and IP together to be competitive with current 25 man roster. There is talk of expanding again in 1977. 

Hey thunderkat. See below for our rules that we applied to the expansion draft in 69'. We had to come up with a method that was agreed upon league wide and fair to the new owners. One thing I did was recruited at least one of my expansions owners prior and had them sit in on the disussion, to ensure that their voice was heard as well, and they didn't feel like they came up up short.

It was pretty difficult to come up with a happy median, but all in all I think we did alright, considering it wasn't done before, that any of us had heard of.

You most definitely have to give the owners the top 4 picks in the draft. They have to have something woth their while to start out. Hopefully it will be a franchise player. We all know how the future turns out for these players, so there's no diamonds in the rough in the later picks of the RND. Also, it was important to ensure that if there are any penalties applied fr tanking in your league, they should not apply to the expansion owners for the first couple of seasons. This should gurantee them some top picks in the drafts following the expansion year.

I'll tell you what. Let me know if you need an expansion owner, and I may bite. I love building teams from the botom up, and trying my hand at expansion might be interesting. RL has been pretty hectic lately, so I can't guarantee anything. - GL Mike. Hell , maybe you can get JAMESA (above post ) in on another expansion as well.

1.Expansion owners get the top 4 picks in the 69' season. Starting in the 2ND they drop to 17,18,19,20

2. Original owners are allowed to keep 12 players. DL are included as part of the 12 players as well. If expansion owners select a DL player during the expansion draft they will have to make it up durin the regular draft.

3. Max number of players selected from any team is 4. That will be a total of 16 players for each team during the exapansion draft. The remaining 9 + AAA will be made up during the regular and AAA draft. Players not selected are the property of the original owner and can be retained. If you do not keep them, they go into the regular draft pool

4. Random order is set for the expansion draft and run serpentine. The regular draft is reverse order from the 1ST RND of the expansion draft for the expansion teams. For example Expansion Draft (1-2-3-4, 4-3-2-1, etc..) Regular Draft (4-3-2-1 for picks 1, 2, 3, 4 in RND 1, and then 4-3-2-1 for picks 17, 18, 19, 20 in all subsequent RNDs)

5. We will not be imposing the min 35 G W mark @ G120 for current franchises in the 69 draft. Nor will we impose it for the expansion teams in the 70' and 71' draft. It will resume in the 72' draft.

Still looking for other opinions on this.  Hope some other members can shed some light.

Bump

I was in a league that added 4 expansion franchises. 3 Points

1. We had 15 keepers, ever time we lost a player, we got to add another keeper.

2. After the first season the expansion teams were so bad that in the next draft they got 2 first round picks. The first based on all teams record , then 21 thru 24 as supplemental picks before round 2 started.

3. The expansion teams first played in 1977. Now in 1979 currently 4/6 last place teams are still the expansion teams. ( I’m another, but I stink.)

I’d suggest limiting keepers To 8. Then pull one back every time you lose one. Max of 4 loses.

i think Fatguyrd is on to something.Eight keepers would free up much better players for the new owners.Lets face it most expansions are dismal failures.The expansion owners bail after 2 or 3 seasons.Another idea would be to have multiple season drafts.Say combine 69-70 71-72.This would increase the supply of players to new owners.

In the Hangover League, we've undergone expansions in 61, 62, 69, 77, and 93.



In 61 and 62, the expansion draft consisted of 12 rounds, 24 picks. Each current team protects 12. in the 61 AL expansion, AL teams lost two players, NL teams lost one. AL teams protected one additional player after losing their first. In the 62 NL expansion, NL teams lost two, AL teams lost one, NL teams protected an additional player after losing their first

In 69, we expanded by four teams, two each in the AL and NL. Current teams protected 12 players. The expansion draft was 15 rounds, for a total of 60 picks, meaning all current teams lost three players. Current teams protected one extra player after losing their first and second.

For the 77 AL expansion, again all 24 current teams protected 12 players. The expansion draft was 15 rounds, for 30 total picks. All 12 NL teams lost one player. All 12 AL teams lost at least one player. AL teams with the six best records in 1976 lost a second player, after protecting an additional player.

For the 93 NL expansion, all 26 current teams protected 12 players. The expansion draft was 15 rounds, for 30 total picks. All 14 AL teams lost one player. All 12 NL teams lost at least one player. NL teams with the four best records in 1992 lost a second player, after protecting an additional player.

In the Rookie/Free Agent draft following each expansion draft, expansion teams selected behind all teams with losing records. Expansion teams were given supplemental picks after the first, third, and fifth rounds.

Generally, a team can expect to have their first winning season somewhere between season 3 and 5.

We just completed our expansion draft going into 1969, going from 16 to 20 teams. I feel, and others in the league have expressed, that it was one of the smoothest and rewarding/fair expansions they'd been apart. Incumbent teams were able to keep their core players, expansion teams were able to draft usable players both for future and to win now (we use a formula to determine the draft order in the first round, so it was important to give owners enough talent to be able to be competitive sooner rather than later.

The one area I feel we were somewhat lacking is compensation for the rookie draft in 1969, partly due to the formula and still wanting to be able to reward incumbent teams in 1969 that earned a top pick. But we amended the rules to add supplemental picks between rounds 1-2 for the expansion owners. We've also added the same 1st round threshold in 1970 as well as supplemental picks between rounds 1-2 in 1970.

I'll post the official rules below this post.

FINAL EXPANSION PROCEDURE

1. Each Incumbent Team will post its 1969 Keeper list in a thread called "1969 Keepers" no later than Game 120 of the 1968 season

2. In its 1969 Keeper post, each team will indicate 8 players to be protected from the Expansion Draft

3. In its 1969 Keeper post, each team will list a full roster of their 1968 team, minus players for whom 1968 is their final season, including all players on IR in 1968 or 1969, and all non-keepers for whom 1968 is not their Final Season (commonly referred to as "Cut" players) using the format posted by chargingryno

4. Immediately after posting 1969 Keepers, each team will send a site mail to h_incandenza (and h_incandenza will send a site mail to chargingryno) indicating a list of 7 additional players ("Priority Players"), in order of preference, to be protected from Expansion, with one Priority Player to be protected every time an Incumbent Team's player is selected. The Priority Player lists will not be visible to the Expansion Teams, and may posit different scenarios (e.g., if Dimaggio gets taken then protect Ruth, but if Koufax gets taken then protect Shlabotnik" etc). No more than 4 players may be chosen from each incumbent roster. Once an expansion teams selects the 4th player from a franchise, that team is block from any further expansion picks, and all remaining players rights go back to the incumbent Franchise.

5. After all 1969 Keepers have been posted and all "Priority Players" site mails have been received, h_incandenza will post a new "1969 Expansion Draft Available Players" thread compiling each team's roster with each team's 8 protected players in strike-through font

6. After the "1969 Expansion Draft Available Players" thread is posted, h_incandenza will post a new "1969 Expansion Draft" thread, the first post of which will track (indicating the Incumbent Team for each pick) the players selected

7. During the Expansion Draft, h_incandenza will edit the 1969 Expansion Draft Available Players (with strike-through font) to reflect players selected by Expansion Teams, as well as Priority Players removed (in order of preference indicated by the Incumbent Teams in the sitemail described in Section 4, above) from the Expansion Draft pool (see Section 8, below)

8. Expansion Draft Procedure:

The Expansion Teams will have a 16 round snake draft: ABCD, DCBA, ABCD, DCBA, etc., with the Expansion Draft to begin on the 4th day after the AP list is posted, i.e., the Expansion Teams will have 3 days to review the AP list before the draft begins - there will be no clock

The order of the first 4 picks will be determined randomly by Commissioner chargingryno. A random four number sequence will be generated on random.org, the owner who receives the 1st pick will determine if he wants to have the 1st pick in the expansion draft or the 1st pick (out of the expansion teams) in the rookie draft). The expansion owner who picks 1st in the expansion draft will pick 4th (out of the expansion teams) in the regular draft. More on that below.

With each player selected from an Incumbent Team's roster, the top player on that Incumbent Team's Priority Player list will be removed from the Expansion Draft pool, indicated by strike-through font in the "1969 Expansion Draft Available Players" post.

Incumbent Teams may revise their Priority Players list via site mail to h_incandenza at any time

Expansion Teams may but are not required to select up to 16 players

9. Trades during the expansion draft:

Expansion and incumbent owners may trade between their teams, and may include expansion draft picks, rookie draft picks, players protected by incumbent owners, or players selected by expansion owners.

Incumbent owners MAY NOT trade players that have not yet been protected. Rosters for incumbent owners will be locked as of Game 120 of the 1968 season, and only protected players may be traded until the completion of the 1969 Expansion draft.

10. Regular Draft

After the conclusion of the Expansion Draft, h_incandenza will post a new "1969 Available Players" pool which will consist of all remaining players in the 1969 SIM, after the Incumbent Teams are given a day to revise their post-Expansion Draft keeper lists

The order of the Regular Draft shall be determined as set forth in the Rules thread, based on 1968 standings and the J4M formula, adjusted as follows:

ROUND 1: Teams with a score of 6.0 or more per the J4M Formula applied to 1968 standings will keep the slots conferred to them by the J4M Formula. Teams with a score of less than 6.0 will drop 4 slots, which will be filled by the Expansion Teams in the order determined randomly by chargingryno for the Expansion Draft, which will run in reverse order for the regular draft. If the expansion draft began ABCD, the expansion teams in the regular draft will draft DCBA

ROUNDS 2, 3, 4, et seq: Expansion Teams will pick 1-4 in the order determined above, and Incumbent Teams will pick 5-20 in inverse order of 1968 standings as set forth in the Rules thread

I am convinced that any more than 8 keepers for expansion teams is too many, and would say that 6-7 would probably be my recommendation, though that's a harder sell for incumbent owners.

With each team protecting 6 players, and then pulling one back after each pick, expansion teams would have the 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th best players on each team respectively. While incumbent teams would have their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12, and on. Still in much greater position both for current and future seasons, but allows expansion teams a fighting chance to not spend $50-$100 before a chance at a competitive team.

Deeper teams going into expansion are still the deepest teams coming out of expansion