In a previous post to this forum ( http://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?TopicID=438659&TopicsTimeframe=180 ) I gave an example of how the logic that determines whether a possession ends in a foul is problematic. Though I've continued to notice this issue, I want to provide two more examples that highlight my point. Similarly, they are post-season games from the same team previously used.
My team (Mount Union):
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Kevin Benson |
Sr. |
PG |
57 |
84 |
1 |
55 |
4 |
31 |
46 |
57 |
38 |
87 |
99 |
56 |
B- |
615 |
| James Patel |
Sr. |
PG |
62 |
73 |
2 |
64 |
4 |
13 |
89 |
85 |
60 |
86 |
86 |
54 |
B |
678 |
| Jeffrey Burleigh |
Jr. |
PG |
61 |
70 |
17 |
78 |
13 |
17 |
36 |
62 |
67 |
28 |
71 |
54 |
B |
574 |
| David Sung |
Jr. |
PG |
53 |
69 |
2 |
59 |
4 |
17 |
50 |
49 |
51 |
58 |
79 |
73 |
C+ |
564 |
| Kevin Bowen |
Jr. |
SG |
55 |
75 |
3 |
49 |
28 |
29 |
71 |
66 |
33 |
86 |
75 |
51 |
B+ |
621 |
| Casey Miller |
Jr. |
SG |
50 |
57 |
16 |
34 |
3 |
1 |
88 |
47 |
35 |
49 |
79 |
48 |
B+ |
507 |
| Howard Cogdell |
So. |
SF |
47 |
46 |
45 |
39 |
18 |
21 |
42 |
27 |
42 |
30 |
63 |
56 |
B |
476 |
| James Copes |
Jr. |
PF |
32 |
32 |
88 |
27 |
69 |
86 |
1 |
15 |
12 |
48 |
88 |
27 |
C- |
525 |
| Roger Hatton |
Sr. |
C |
57 |
22 |
87 |
44 |
80 |
39 |
2 |
17 |
35 |
85 |
80 |
50 |
C |
598 |
| Charles Manfredi |
Sr. |
C |
44 |
31 |
93 |
44 |
85 |
79 |
1 |
30 |
18 |
66 |
74 |
54 |
B- |
619 |
| Ralph Johnson |
So. |
C |
29 |
33 |
71 |
54 |
57 |
15 |
22 |
23 |
23 |
50 |
68 |
57 |
C- |
502 |
| Randy Hanson |
Fr. |
C |
45 |
17 |
67 |
47 |
54 |
69 |
3 |
12 |
1 |
71 |
75 |
35 |
D |
496 |
| Averages |
- |
- |
49 |
51 |
41 |
50 |
35 |
35 |
38 |
41 |
35 |
62 |
78 |
51 |
- |
565 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Kevin Benson |
Sr. |
PG |
D- |
A+ |
D- |
D- |
C- |
A |
A |
| James Patel |
Sr. |
PG |
D- |
A+ |
D- |
D- |
D- |
A+ |
A |
| Jeffrey Burleigh |
Jr. |
PG |
F |
B |
F |
F |
B |
C+ |
B+ |
| David Sung |
Jr. |
PG |
C- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
D- |
A- |
A |
| Kevin Bowen |
Jr. |
SG |
C |
A- |
D- |
D- |
D- |
A |
A |
| Casey Miller |
Jr. |
SG |
D- |
A |
D- |
C- |
C |
A |
A+ |
| Howard Cogdell |
So. |
SF |
C |
B |
D- |
D- |
C- |
B |
B+ |
| James Copes |
Jr. |
PF |
C- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
D- |
A- |
A- |
| Roger Hatton |
Sr. |
C |
D- |
A+ |
D- |
D- |
C- |
A |
A |
| Charles Manfredi |
Sr. |
C |
D- |
A |
D- |
D- |
D- |
A |
A+ |
| Ralph Johnson |
So. |
C |
C |
B+ |
D- |
D- |
D- |
B+ |
A- |
| Randy Hanson |
Fr. |
C |
C- |
B- |
F |
F |
F |
B |
B- |
1st Example (Chapman):
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| James Cooley |
So. |
PG |
58 |
84 |
1 |
54 |
3 |
1 |
35 |
66 |
57 |
49 |
80 |
70 |
C+ |
558 |
| Lawrence Rentz |
So. |
PG |
58 |
79 |
13 |
72 |
14 |
1 |
74 |
42 |
40 |
70 |
85 |
68 |
C+ |
616 |
| Wayne Hill |
Jr. |
SG |
65 |
69 |
7 |
76 |
8 |
15 |
37 |
56 |
34 |
64 |
79 |
57 |
C- |
567 |
| Jeffrey Ewing |
Fr. |
SG |
60 |
61 |
5 |
60 |
3 |
8 |
23 |
63 |
50 |
50 |
70 |
38 |
C- |
491 |
| Daniel Marshall |
Sr. |
SF |
66 |
46 |
46 |
48 |
38 |
58 |
67 |
40 |
38 |
58 |
74 |
56 |
B- |
635 |
| Dale Rhoton |
Sr. |
SF |
75 |
68 |
36 |
67 |
19 |
50 |
57 |
47 |
50 |
58 |
75 |
97 |
C |
699 |
| Johnny Rose |
Sr. |
PF |
54 |
41 |
74 |
65 |
77 |
72 |
47 |
39 |
36 |
51 |
79 |
76 |
C |
711 |
| Allen Towery |
Sr. |
PF |
42 |
18 |
90 |
29 |
78 |
47 |
36 |
14 |
24 |
48 |
73 |
33 |
C+ |
532 |
| Jonathan Zusman |
Jr. |
C |
57 |
33 |
86 |
59 |
62 |
79 |
11 |
21 |
20 |
74 |
83 |
68 |
B- |
653 |
| Robert Ludwig |
So. |
C |
69 |
21 |
56 |
71 |
48 |
60 |
6 |
2 |
27 |
31 |
58 |
46 |
C- |
495 |
| Joseph Higgins |
Fr. |
C |
57 |
15 |
58 |
60 |
36 |
35 |
8 |
13 |
36 |
26 |
71 |
62 |
D+ |
477 |
| David Penn |
Fr. |
PF |
27 |
8 |
7 |
17 |
25 |
27 |
5 |
22 |
2 |
43 |
75 |
72 |
C |
330 |
| Averages |
- |
- |
57 |
45 |
40 |
56 |
34 |
38 |
34 |
35 |
34 |
52 |
75 |
62 |
- |
564 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Wayne Hill |
Jr. |
SG |
D- |
D- |
A |
C- |
C- |
A+ |
D- |
| Allen Towery |
Sr. |
PF |
D- |
D+ |
A |
D- |
C- |
A+ |
D- |
| Jonathan Zusman |
Jr. |
C |
D- |
D- |
A |
D- |
D- |
A |
D- |
| Lawrence Rentz |
So. |
PG |
D- |
D- |
A- |
C- |
C- |
A- |
C- |
| Johnny Rose |
Sr. |
PF |
D- |
D- |
A- |
D- |
C+ |
B+ |
D- |
| James Cooley |
So. |
PG |
D- |
D- |
B+ |
D- |
C- |
B+ |
C- |
| Jeffrey Ewing |
Fr. |
SG |
D- |
C- |
B+ |
D- |
D- |
A- |
D- |
| Daniel Marshall |
Sr. |
SF |
D- |
B |
B+ |
D- |
B+ |
A- |
D- |
| Dale Rhoton |
Sr. |
SF |
D- |
D- |
B+ |
B+ |
B |
A- |
B |
| Robert Ludwig |
So. |
C |
D- |
D |
B |
D- |
C |
B+ |
D- |
| David Penn |
Fr. |
PF |
F |
F |
B |
F |
C- |
B- |
D- |
| Joseph Higgins |
Fr. |
C |
C- |
F |
C+ |
F |
D+ |
B- |
F |
In this game Chapman used a 2-3 (-3) defense and slowdown tempo for both halfs and I used a half-court press/2-3 (0) for both halfs as well. Despite my advantage in speed and IQ, along with them using a slowdown tempo, we committed 23 fouls over the course of the game, which isn't unrealistic considering that the game went into double overtime. However, my opponent having comparable IQ's and only a little better team defensive rating, fouled 17 total times and didn't commit their seventh foul of the senond half until the 2nd overtime although using a -3 defensive positioning against a faster team using a normal tempo. Luckily, my opponent only went 13-23 in FTs.
2nd Example (Rochester):
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Jesse Williams |
Sr. |
PG |
66 |
77 |
1 |
69 |
3 |
18 |
36 |
73 |
60 |
47 |
84 |
65 |
B+ |
599 |
| Jeffrey Elders |
Jr. |
PG |
51 |
64 |
2 |
52 |
2 |
1 |
56 |
57 |
73 |
36 |
88 |
26 |
C+ |
508 |
| Edward Donohue |
Fr. |
PG |
42 |
71 |
1 |
27 |
1 |
23 |
52 |
65 |
43 |
30 |
72 |
39 |
C |
466 |
| Samuel Cyr |
So. |
SG |
51 |
51 |
4 |
49 |
2 |
40 |
90 |
51 |
56 |
43 |
66 |
45 |
B- |
548 |
| Michael Mansour |
So. |
SG |
60 |
71 |
45 |
67 |
17 |
47 |
20 |
38 |
21 |
28 |
75 |
32 |
C- |
521 |
| Ryan Gray |
Fr. |
SG |
47 |
68 |
12 |
35 |
16 |
17 |
38 |
45 |
43 |
89 |
82 |
92 |
C+ |
584 |
| Derrick Thomason |
Sr. |
SF |
61 |
49 |
56 |
69 |
26 |
88 |
58 |
41 |
43 |
75 |
77 |
83 |
C+ |
726 |
| Bryan Hosley |
Jr. |
SF |
62 |
47 |
52 |
77 |
36 |
66 |
40 |
58 |
48 |
73 |
83 |
46 |
B+ |
688 |
| Michael Thomas |
Sr. |
C |
57 |
25 |
94 |
80 |
81 |
31 |
17 |
34 |
31 |
89 |
80 |
58 |
B- |
677 |
| Peter Maxwell |
Jr. |
C |
52 |
31 |
87 |
15 |
46 |
91 |
15 |
20 |
19 |
49 |
66 |
77 |
C |
568 |
| Percy Taylor |
Jr. |
C |
70 |
38 |
70 |
79 |
76 |
40 |
1 |
3 |
46 |
67 |
84 |
34 |
B- |
608 |
| Curtis Kerns |
So. |
C |
63 |
24 |
74 |
59 |
62 |
9 |
7 |
27 |
26 |
58 |
72 |
55 |
C- |
536 |
| Averages |
- |
- |
57 |
51 |
42 |
56 |
31 |
39 |
36 |
43 |
42 |
57 |
77 |
54 |
- |
586 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Jesse Williams |
Sr. |
PG |
D- |
A |
C |
D- |
A- |
B- |
D+ |
| Jeffrey Elders |
Jr. |
PG |
D- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
| Edward Donohue |
Fr. |
PG |
F |
B- |
D |
F |
B- |
D+ |
D+ |
| Samuel Cyr |
So. |
SG |
D- |
A- |
D- |
C- |
A- |
C- |
D- |
| Michael Mansour |
So. |
SG |
C- |
B+ |
F |
F |
B+ |
C- |
F |
| Ryan Gray |
Fr. |
SG |
D- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
| Derrick Thomason |
Sr. |
SF |
D+ |
A+ |
D- |
D- |
A- |
B- |
D+ |
| Bryan Hosley |
Jr. |
SF |
D- |
A+ |
D- |
D- |
A |
B- |
C |
| Michael Thomas |
Sr. |
C |
C- |
A+ |
D- |
D- |
A |
B |
D- |
| Peter Maxwell |
Jr. |
C |
C- |
A- |
D- |
D- |
A- |
D- |
C- |
| Percy Taylor |
Jr. |
C |
D- |
A |
D+ |
D- |
A |
D- |
C- |
| Curtis Kerns |
So. |
C |
D- |
B+ |
D- |
C+ |
A- |
D- |
C- |
In this match-up my opponent used a man (-3) defense and slowdown tempo for both halfs, while I used a half-court press/2-3 (0) for the first and a half-court press/2-3 (-2) for the second half. Although only having nine eligible players (Cyr, Gray, and Kerns were ineligible) and using a -3 defensive positioning against a team with comparable IQs and speed, my opponent committed 18 fouls; while we committed 24 fouls (3 intentionally) despite the similar IQs and slowdown offense. Unfortunately for me, my opponent won by going 27-33 in FTs, despite my team dominating both offensively and defensively.
Given all the factors previously mentioned, I don't think that simply running a half-court press should be the factor that is most likely responsible for causing this disparity in fouls.
Also, all of my players fatigue settings are fairly fresh, except Manfredi's.