Part of this is just frustration on my part, but I'm hoping something useful can come out of it.

By and large, I feel relatively confident game-planning against most coaches/defenses.

When I have the more talented team (to my eye, not necessary by overall rating) I can win the vast majority of the time, no matter what defense (zone/m2m/press) we are facing.

When I have an equally talented team, I can win most of the time against zone or m2m, and seem to be roughly a coin flip against press.

When I have the less-talented team, I can still steal wins (either by coaching or luck, who really knows) against zone or m2m, but almost never against a press team. And therein lies the issue.

I feel like there are tools I can use against zone or m2m defenses where I can have my squad, however it is made up, play somewhat to my strengths.

That's not to say that everything is effective, but if I go with a "big" lineup (for example) against zone or m2m, the interior strengths can offset some of the liabilities in ball-handling. I may or may not win, but I leave with the impression that my game plan was executed and I gave myself a fighting chance. I can do the reverse, as well, going fast/small if the circumstances dictate that.

With press, I just don't feel that way. Due to my own failings, I have a very weak backcourt at Hamline this season, in terms or depth, IQ, and current talent. Despite this, and a (arguably deservedly) low #10 NT seed, I was able to game plan and defeat two "superior" teams in the NT (+6 vs. #24; +7 vs. #18). Both those were double-digit wins, and both came against m2m defenses that I was able to counter despite that (relatively) weak backcourt. 

In the third game I faced a press team (+5 vs. #18). Now granted the opposing coach was also the best of the three (and he is a better coach than I, so I mean no disrespect to the first two coaches I beat this season), but at the NT level, most of the coaches are pretty good.

So, against the press, my weak backcourt was destroyed, as arguably it should be. But I'm still at a loss as to how one should beat an elite press team, other than simply having better players (especially the ball-handlers). This isn't a case of merely one game, mind you, so you need not point out that Rhodes is just a better team; it's more of a broad level question/issue.

Against Zone or M2M, I can change things to win with a "inferior" team from time to time.

As best I can tell, that is a *very* rare occurrence against a press team. Give that opposing press team good talent and a good IQ, and the gameplan against them almost seems irrelevant unless you have better talent on the floor, and in particular one specific type of better talent (in the form of backcourt/speed/ballhandlers).

Is this completely off? Has anyone has more regular success against press teams than zone or m2m in situations where they don't enjoy that guard advantage?

Honestly if I feel like my team winning is a bit of an upset I'd rather be facing the press than anything else.  You always have that chance that the other team racks up too many fouls early and you end up winning on foul-outs, limited minutes for opposing stars, and of course free throws.  I think most coaches seem to agree that the press gives the greatest variance of any defense - meaning press teams have the best chance to upset better teams, but also the best chance to lose to lesser ones.  That being said, if you have sub-par BH and Pass, particularly at the PG position, press defenses are going to eat you up on turnovers.  I don't think there's any way around that.  You just have to keep at least one or two guys who can handle and distribute the ball around, and if you don't have them you cross your fingers that you don't face a great press team in the tournament...

Evidence for the variance and importance of PG points - my Methodist team almost beat Rhodes in the first round (3 points, within 1 very late).  We aren't nearly as good a team even as yours and should have been blown away, but somehow in spite of not drawing all that many fouls did keep it close.  A big part of that is probably the fact that my best player this season was my 701 overall senior PG.  He didn't have a particularly good shooting game against Rhodes, but did put up a 7/2 A/T that was huge in terms of keeping the game close.

Interesting Dahs, but I don't feel like your point is completely contrary to mine. While we may disagree on how likely it is to upset the upper-level press teams as opposed to upper-level m2m or zone, your experience may be some evidence of what I think is the larger problem, in that there is (as best I can tell) a single means of beating the good zone team, and it is tied directly to one type of player.

I'm not saying a good press team shouldn't commit a ton of turnovers against a big lineup with inexperienced backcourt - it should. But it should also be balanced out by something else (in that instance, a higher FG% and/or a benefit on the boards) so there are alternative gameplans that have the potential to win - and THAT is what I'm just not sure happens.

Against M2M or Zone, there are multiple ways to attack, depending on the skill set of your own team. Against Press...

I'm not going to share how I attack the press since I have 2 press teams but I believe press is fairly easy to attack. 

I'm with tianyi...  Worth pointing out that if you look at enough statistics, you'll probably find that based on the quality of the defenders (I know, tough to quantify) you shoot better against the press than either of the other two defenses.  Frankly, that may not always - or even often - be able to overcome your turnovers if you have sufficiently sub-par BH and to a lesser degree passing at the PG position.  A decent press team can regularly generate 5+ TOs from opposing PGs, and you need a guy who can avoid that more often than not to consistently beat them.  But you knew that during recruiting.  Not having a decent PG is a deficiency that it is very realistic to have difficult to overcome, particularly against a defense that focuses on forcing turnovers at the expense of giving up some easier buckets.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/8/2011 11:33:00 AM (view original):
I'm not going to share how I attack the press since I have 2 press teams but I believe press is fairly easy to attack. 

Well, I know one of the two press teams is Drew in my World, and in the last 9 seasons Drew has had 30+ wins, with the other season being 29 wins. So it's pretty clearly not just me that has trouble with that squad.  Perhaps it seems fairly easy to attack to you, but judging from that history, it's seems as though not many people have figured it out.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/8/2011 11:57:00 AM (view original):
I'm with tianyi...  Worth pointing out that if you look at enough statistics, you'll probably find that based on the quality of the defenders (I know, tough to quantify) you shoot better against the press than either of the other two defenses.  Frankly, that may not always - or even often - be able to overcome your turnovers if you have sufficiently sub-par BH and to a lesser degree passing at the PG position.  A decent press team can regularly generate 5+ TOs from opposing PGs, and you need a guy who can avoid that more often than not to consistently beat them.  But you knew that during recruiting.  Not having a decent PG is a deficiency that it is very realistic to have difficult to overcome, particularly against a defense that focuses on forcing turnovers at the expense of giving up some easier buckets.

The quality of defenders aspect is tough to quantify, which makes broad-scale statistical analysis difficult, if not impossible. Without that, I'm left with more of a feeling, and it seems to me that I don't see that FG increase (or rebounding increase) against the good press teams.

When I have the strong backcourt/ballhandling, I can minimize the turnovers, but whether I have the TO or not, there doesn't seem to be the same option to attack and punish the press for pressing. In contrast, I can easily game-plan to "punish" M2M or Zone.

Of course, it may be that I am just missing the easy way to attack zone that others reference, so if that is the case I'm hopeful that someone might bring up something I am just failing to consider at the moment.

"it seems to me that I don't see that FG increase (or rebounding increase) against the good press teams. "

As a press guy, I can tell you I get killed on the boards. If I don't force turnovers, I lose. End of story.

Now, I normally get killed on the boards because other teams have better rebounders.  If they don't I know I am gonna win.  Because I don't necessarily recruit rebounders my #'s are usually lower than my opponents starters.   How I survive is having 4 post players that average out (with sta factored in) that come close to my opponents.   I hope my backups are better than yours, because I know my starters won't be.

If you can dribble, pass and rebound I know I will have issues.  If you can't do all three I know I have a shot.

I don't know how to attack other defenses but I would certainly hit the slow down button if I played me.

Posted by zbrent716 on 9/8/2011 12:42:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 9/8/2011 11:33:00 AM (view original):
I'm not going to share how I attack the press since I have 2 press teams but I believe press is fairly easy to attack. 

Well, I know one of the two press teams is Drew in my World, and in the last 9 seasons Drew has had 30+ wins, with the other season being 29 wins. So it's pretty clearly not just me that has trouble with that squad.  Perhaps it seems fairly easy to attack to you, but judging from that history, it's seems as though not many people have figured it out.

Opp are shooting .431 against my drew squad, despite my team having great ath/spd/def for D3. If this team was M2M, opp would probably shoot .350 for the season. And I'm barely winning the rebounding battle for the season, in a weak conf. I would gladly take the fg% and an extra 8-10reb/game over the 6-8 more t/o. 

And btw, the Naismith D3 team that went 29-2 last season, was a #1 seed in the NT with 59/63/54 ath/spd/def, rated almost 595. How did we lose by 10 in the 2nd round? Well, simply because we only forced 13 t/o. 

Ofc going against M2M, things are more direct. You put your best offensive player against your opp worst defender, and load up his distro. Going against the fcp, you can't do this but there are other things you can do to get things in your favor. 

If you recruit properly than you should be able to play any team well regardless of their offensive or defensive sets.

Posted by dahsdebater on 9/8/2011 2:22:00 AM (view original):
Evidence for the variance and importance of PG points - my Methodist team almost beat Rhodes in the first round (3 points, within 1 very late).  We aren't nearly as good a team even as yours and should have been blown away, but somehow in spite of not drawing all that many fouls did keep it close.  A big part of that is probably the fact that my best player this season was my 701 overall senior PG.  He didn't have a particularly good shooting game against Rhodes, but did put up a 7/2 A/T that was huge in terms of keeping the game close.

PGs are extremely important, especially when you are going up against the press. If you aren't able to break the press, by either passing (PA/IQ) or dribbling (SPD/ATH/BH) you are going to give up a lot of turnovers.