Scoring from first base??? Topic

In league 97878, I drafted some of the very fastest base runners of the 1800's, and I notice '85 Harry Stovey and George Gore scoring from 1st base on singles pretty regularly. I have not noticed this with other base runners, or, for that matter, in any other league. Was I just missing something? Or have I stumbled into an advantage that I had missed before?
12/11/2011 8:14 AM
there is only one Enos Slaughter!
12/11/2011 3:02 PM
If DiMaggio stays in the game, Country stops at third.

Stovey `86 had wheels.  I think SIM is doing what it's supposed to be doing in terms of factoring in the speed rating.  Guys like Stovey, Willie Wilson, Tom Brown, Buck Ewing and Frankie Frisch should be able to score from first on a single from time to time, especially if you crank up Base Running Aggressiveness to 4 or 5.  Too bad none of the old timers converted more than 65 or 70% of their stolen base attempts, no matter how fast they were.
12/11/2011 6:52 PM
I think the sim also considers the score, the number of outs and who is one deck
12/12/2011 12:42 AM
Not to mention that Slaughter scored on a double, not (as is commonly reported) a single...
12/12/2011 7:04 AM
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/11/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
If DiMaggio stays in the game, Country stops at third.

Stovey `86 had wheels.  I think SIM is doing what it's supposed to be doing in terms of factoring in the speed rating.  Guys like Stovey, Willie Wilson, Tom Brown, Buck Ewing and Frankie Frisch should be able to score from first on a single from time to time, especially if you crank up Base Running Aggressiveness to 4 or 5.  Too bad none of the old timers converted more than 65 or 70% of their stolen base attempts, no matter how fast they were.
How do you figure anybody should be able to score from first on a single?  Maybe a Bengie Molina single...
12/12/2011 7:40 PM
Posted by dahsdebater on 12/12/2011 7:40:00 PM (view original):
Posted by thunder1008 on 12/11/2011 6:52:00 PM (view original):
If DiMaggio stays in the game, Country stops at third.

Stovey `86 had wheels.  I think SIM is doing what it's supposed to be doing in terms of factoring in the speed rating.  Guys like Stovey, Willie Wilson, Tom Brown, Buck Ewing and Frankie Frisch should be able to score from first on a single from time to time, especially if you crank up Base Running Aggressiveness to 4 or 5.  Too bad none of the old timers converted more than 65 or 70% of their stolen base attempts, no matter how fast they were.
How do you figure anybody should be able to score from first on a single?  Maybe a Bengie Molina single...
If the runner is going with the pitch and the details of the defense and the type of hit are right, it is very possibel.  If memory serves correctly The Whitey Ball teams of the 70's (in KC) and 80's in StL did it often enough.
12/12/2011 9:48 PM

Zubinsum is right.  When I think about a player scoring from first on a single, I think first and foremost of Willie Wilson tearing around the bases (maybe running from the law in retrospect).  This is a guy who hit five inside-the-park home runs in 1979, if memory serves me right.

Let me sort of back into my logic from a SIM perspective.  Let's say for the sake of argument that a Speed Rating of 50 is the 50th percentile in SIM, a Speed Rating of 80 is 80th percentile and so forth.  That's probably oversimplifying, but humor me.  So guys like Harry Stovey `86 and Willie Wilson `80 are faster than all but one percent of all other players in the SIM, give or take.

How would this be expressed?  Stolen bases?  Not really.  SB seem to be more a factor of RL SB/SBA and catcher's arm.  Partially hits, I guess.  And partially proficiency on the basepaths.  Going from first to third on a single, scoring from second on a single and scoring from first on a double?  Yes, but in my anecdotal experience the average SIM baserunner goes from first to third more often than he goes from first to second anyway, scores from second on a single more often than he stops at third, scores from first on a double more often than he stops at third, etc.  Dahsdebater, are you saying that a Speed Rating greater than 99% of the ballplayers in SIM only increases the frequency with which he attempts and succeeds at something that most SIM baserunners attempt and succeed at anyway?  Maybe, but I'm not convinced.

Now factor in the Baserunning Aggressiveness managerial control.  Combine a baserunner with a Speed Rating of 99 or 100, who is faster than 99% of his counterparts, with a Baserunning Aggressiveness setting of, say, 5.  Are you saying that those two factors combined would still only enable him to attempt a little more often and succeed a little more often at something the average SIM baserunner attempts and succeeds at on an average Baserunning setting?  Seems counterintuitive if the Speed Rating and Baserunning Aggressiveness setting mean anything (which they may not) .

I think a guy with a Speed Rating of 100 and a Baserunning Aggressiveness setting of 5 would try to score from first on a single quite a bit, and might succeed quite a bit as well, depending on the other factors that zubinsum mentioned like number of outs, score, who's on deck, etc.

I'll find out soon.  That's my latest fool's mission -- building a team of pure burners from top to bottom of my lineup -- Harry Stovey, Willie Wilson, Frankie Frisch, Buck Ewing, Chone Figgins, etc,, cranking up Baserunning Aggressiveness to 4 or 5 and cutting them loose.  I'll let you know how often they score from first on singles, hit inside the park homers, etc..  They'll probably get thrown out a lot.  Live and learn.     

12/13/2011 5:24 AM
Posted by contrarian23 on 12/12/2011 7:04:00 AM (view original):
Not to mention that Slaughter scored on a double, not (as is commonly reported) a single...
A TRUE double, or did the batter take 2nd because the throw went home to try and get Slaughter at the plate?
12/13/2011 11:01 AM
Groing up in the 70's, '80's I was a big fan of the speed game, Whiteyball, Billyball... I draft most of my teams to play that way so I've had '80 W.Wilson on a lot of teams, but oddly enough I don't remember reading him scoring from 1st on a single, actually can't even remember him getting an inside the park HR. And I do set baserunning to very aggressive. Wilson did hit 12 of his first 15 big league HRs inside the park. True that it was at vast astroturf Royals stadium where much slower runners did get inside the parkers, it's still very impressive. Interesting to know that after 1983 he hit 26 more HRs, none were inside the park.
Looking forward to reading about thunder's speedsters experiment.
12/13/2011 12:34 PM
Here's my speed team.  All these guys can fly.  Castillo's speed rating is 87, Sisler is 89, Wills is 92, Raines is 92, Figgins is 93, Wilson is 97, Ewing is 99 (and overpriced for his B arm; the $6 MM version with the A+ arm is even more overpriced) and Stovey is 100.  Not much power in the ineup, but I wanted to keep the team pure burners from top to bottom where I could crank up Baserunning Aggressiveness without slow sluggers killing rallies by getting thrown out.  OBP, the heart and soul of SIM, is lower than I prefer; that's why I've got Castillo and Sisler in there, although there were faster options at first and second (like Frankie Frisch).  I will start with a Baserunning aggressiveness setting of 4 and tweak it up to 5 if my runners aren't making reckless choices.  Going to add the team to an OL today; fingers crossed for a league of lazy-armed catchers.  The scrubs are just the usual scrubs, except for the aptly named Scott Bullett.

C 1885 Buck Ewing R 514 495 6 63 39-15 17-13 57.0 .304 .330 .471 C-/A+ $5,077,495
1B 1921 George Sisler L 668 613 12 104 35-11 27-34 48.5 .371 .411 .560 B/C $6,716,853
2B 2000 Luis Castillo S 630 543 2 17 62-22 86-78 269.5 .334 .418 .388 B/C $5,231,487
3B 2007 Chone Figgins S 503 442 3 58 41-12 81-51 147.3 .330 .393 .432 C/D- $3,582,246
SS 1962 Maury Wills S 746 683 6 48 104-13 57-51 115.8 .299 .347 .373 C/B- $5,237,447
OF 1886 Harry Stovey R 665 587 7 59 68-26 45-64 69.9 .294 .377 .440 D/A+ $5,591,354
OF 1979 Willie Wilson S 640 588 6 49 83-12 92-28 98.0 .315 .351 .420 B/A $5,697,394
OF 1981 Tim Raines S 545 470 5 37 71-11 31-45 62.6 .304 .391 .438 C/C- $4,267,085
3B 2003 Wilson Delgado S 58 50 0 4 0-0 8-8 50.0 .320 .414 .320 D/D- $249,592
OF 1993 Scott Bullett S 59 55 0 4 3-2 15-3 55.0 .200 .237 .273 C/D- $265,436
OF 1898 Charlie Hickman R 67 64 0 7 0-0 5-1 58.0 .259 .283 .293 C/A+ $203,321
1B 2005 Prince Fielder L 62 59 2 10 0-0 17-2 29.5 .288 .306 .458 C/D- $202,908
Util 2002 Howie Clark L 58 53 0 4 0-0 6-3 53.0 .302 .362 .396 D-/D- $200,000
    Util  optional                          
    Util  optional                          
    Util  optional                          
    Util  optional                          
    Util  optional                          
    Util  optional                          
Batting Totals 5215 4702 49 464 506-124 487-381 87.0 .317 .374 .432 C/C+ $42,522,618
Pitching Staff
    Role Player T W-L-S IP/
162
ERA OAV WHIP K/
9
BB/
9
HR/
9
K-BB Salary
SP 1908 Addie Joss R 24-11-2 342 1.16 .197 0.81 3.60 0.83 0.06 130-30 $12,778,253
SP/RP 1909 Cy Morgan R 18-17-1 311 1.81 .202 1.04 3.41 3.13 0.09 111-102 $8,247,098
SP/RP 1909 Ed Summers R 19-9-1 301 2.24 .227 1.05 3.42 1.66 0.13 107-52 $7,770,317
SP/RP 1910 Kirby White R 1-2-0 28 1.38 .188 1.04 2.08 4.15 0.69 6-12 $474,927
SP/RP 1909 Cliff Curtis R 4-5-0 88 1.41 .191 1.00 2.39 3.25 0.11 22-30 $2,457,905
SP/RP 1907 Tex Neuer L 4-2-0 60 2.17 .208 1.09 3.67 3.17 0.17 22-19 $1,380,545
SP/RP 1915 Tim McCabe R 3-1-0 44 1.30 .177 0.82 3.67 1.94 0.22 17-9 $1,476,708
SP/RP 1988 Bob Milacki R 2-0-0 26 0.72 .110 0.72 6.48 3.24 0.36 18-9 $1,231,122
SP/RP 1983 Jeff Heathcock R 2-1-1 28 3.21 .181 0.82 3.86 1.29 0.32 12-4 $1,045,024
SP/RP 1963 Mike Lee L 1-1-0 27 3.81 .300 1.69 3.81 4.85 1.04 11-14 $200,000
SP/RP 1983 Jay Pettibone R 0-4-0 27 5.33 .280 1.33 3.33 2.67 2.67 10-8 $204,009
    SP/RP  optional                      
    SP/RP  optional                      
Pitching Totals 78-53-5 1,282 1.83 .207 0.98 3.46 2.15 0.20 466-289 $37,265,908
12/13/2011 1:59 PM
Posted by winner77 on 12/13/2011 11:01:00 AM (view original):
Posted by contrarian23 on 12/12/2011 7:04:00 AM (view original):
Not to mention that Slaughter scored on a double, not (as is commonly reported) a single...
A TRUE double, or did the batter take 2nd because the throw went home to try and get Slaughter at the plate?
I've got the MLB WS video; it's a true double.  Walker hit the ball into the gap and never stopped on his way to second.

I'm not sure where the mythology of the "single" came from, but it is impressive that Slaughter was going full tilt the whole way.  His legendary hustle was on full display.  The ball wasn't hit that deep, and it appears to me that he had decided he was going to try to score by the time he reached second base.  Maybe taking advantage of the fact the Culberson had replaced the injured DiMaggio in CF.

Unfortunately, the video doesn't give a great view of the relay from Pesky, so it's hard to tell if the other part of the myth is true - that Pesky delayed in throwing home, allowing the run to score.
12/13/2011 2:06 PM
Too bad the video doesn't show Pesky and whether he looked first at Walker coming around first, as some claim, or was simply so surprised to see Slaughter rounding third with a full head of steam that he was caught flatfooted, as others claim.  I gather it wasn't much of a relay even when he finally got it off.
12/13/2011 3:03 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7IgTE593oA This video of the play shows Pesky's throw was up the line a bit, and dropped by SL's catcher. Slaughter was running full tilt all the way, and waved on by his 3rd base coach.

12/13/2011 7:29 PM
I think the general premise that the 2 most important factors in determining how likely guys are to score from first on a single are the player's speed and the baserunning aggressiveness setting is severely flawed.  I actually think the player's RL SB attempt total, individual steals setting, and the team hit and run setting are all probably more important than the baserunning aggressiveness setting.  You're absolutely NEVER going to see a player score from first on a single unless he's most of the way to 2nd by the time the ball is hit, no matter how fast and aggressive he is.  The only time it's going to happen is when the runner was off with the pitch.  Either there were 2 outs and a full count or the guy was stealing, and since the former is a relatively rare occurrence in terms of total chances most opportunities are going to come as a result of the latter.  The more your settings have your fast guys trying to steal or go as part of the hit and run, the more chances you have to score from first on a single.  A fast guy who you have set to a 0 or a 1 on the steals setting isn't going to get a lot of chances, even if he does have 90+ speed.
12/15/2011 10:10 PM
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