someone mentioned something in the forums, maybe alblack's forum about the coaching, about jim boehiem maybe leaving syracuse before they got in trouble, maybe even before they got the death penalty. i was thinking, what the hell is that coach talking about? must be some major recruiting scandal i missed.

well, it looks like its over syracuse not policing their own drug policy, in which they are supposed to suspend players, and didn't. an article i read said the athletic dept ignored many kids showing up with recreational or other drugs. didn't mention if any were perfomance enchancing.

so, two things. first, i have just started looking - anybody know more about what is going on there? am i even looking at the right thing, did i miss the recruiting scandal?

second, what do you guys think? seems to me if the kids were using performance enhancing drugs, taking steroids etc, that is over the line and i could see syracause being rightfully stripped of wins during the periods those players played, including if necessary their 2003 title. but, these are teenage kids, or slightly younger, going to college. if they were just like, smoking pot or something, then i fail to see what that has to do with winning on the court. unless, of course, the prize for winning was a delicious crumb cake, and the kids were smoking up in the locker room, giving true meaning to the phrase, pre-game!

anyway, im kind of curious what others think. college kids do drugs, and i think everyone knows that, this is not some big surprise. professional athletes, like all other professionals, use recreational drugs, too. i see no reason to discriminate against people just because they are athletes, nobody is testing the rest of the college kids. i personally feel like the governing bodies have the right to check for performance enhancing drugs only, to make sure nobody is cheating, but then, what the players do in their own time, is nobody's damn business but their own. if the actual government wants to do something about it, fine (well not fine, but its different), but the NBA, NCAA, and all the other governing bodies, well, i think they should keep their nose where it belongs.

on the other hand, i do respect the idea that these athletes are public figures and should set good examples. so like, don't rape women and all that. but should they have to act differently behind closed doors? i dont think so - and i think schools, the NCAA, NBA, etc should just be testing for exactly what they are looking for - if you are making sure nobody is cheating, dont have the lab test for anything else. its a waste of money frankly, if nothing else, unless you really are going to do something about it. and who sees that happening? if you banned all the pot smokers from the NBA and the NFL, those teams would be awful short handed, don't you think?

heres a link to 1 article - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/basketball/ncaa/03/05/Syracuse.drug.policy.ap/index.html

Assuming all allegations made are true, I think Syracuse should receive an SMU-style death penalty and forfeit all wins dating back to 2001, which would include vacating the 2003 national championship. Between the drug testing, Bernie Fine scandal, and playing an ineligible player for much of this season, there's no question that this is the definition of lack of institutional control, and the program should be shut down. And I'm saying this as a Syracuse fan and supporter for the past 25 years.

There was a great documentary--I think a 30 on 30 piece on the SMU case. From what little I know, this wouldnt qualify as a death penalty situation. SMU only received the Death Penalty after being put on probation, and continuing to send payoffs to recruits during the probation. Basically, the initial investigation didnt uncover everyone that was getting paid--and they feared if they stopped paying those that werent uncovered that those players would speak out..so they continued those payoffs. This is nowhere near to that level.

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Assuming all allegations made are true, I think Syracuse should receive an SMU-style death penalty and forfeit all wins dating back to 2001, which would include vacating the 2003 national championship. Between the drug testing, Bernie Fine scandal, and playing an ineligible player for much of this season, there's no question that this is the definition of lack of institutional control, and the program should be shut down. And I'm saying this as a Syracuse fan and supporter for the past 25 years.

Didn't it come out that the Bernie Fine stuff was made up?  Or is that still ongoing?

Posted by ll316 on 3/20/2012 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Assuming all allegations made are true, I think Syracuse should receive an SMU-style death penalty and forfeit all wins dating back to 2001, which would include vacating the 2003 national championship. Between the drug testing, Bernie Fine scandal, and playing an ineligible player for much of this season, there's no question that this is the definition of lack of institutional control, and the program should be shut down. And I'm saying this as a Syracuse fan and supporter for the past 25 years.

Didn't it come out that the Bernie Fine stuff was made up?  Or is that still ongoing?

There were 4 accusers. Nos. 3 & 4 don't appear all that credible or have gaping holes/inconsistencies in their stories, but I think an investigation is still ongoing in one of them. The DA said that No. 1 & 2 were credible, but beyond the statute of limitations, so no further investigation. No. 2 changed his story from the initial investigation a few years ago, and No. 1 was having an affair with Fine's wife. No. 1 said Boeheim personally witnessed acts of abuse and did nothing about it. It's all so strange and convoluted that we'll probably never know what really happened.  

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Assuming all allegations made are true, I think Syracuse should receive an SMU-style death penalty and forfeit all wins dating back to 2001, which would include vacating the 2003 national championship. Between the drug testing, Bernie Fine scandal, and playing an ineligible player for much of this season, there's no question that this is the definition of lack of institutional control, and the program should be shut down. And I'm saying this as a Syracuse fan and supporter for the past 25 years.

wow, thats rough from a syracuse fan!! am i missing something that is really that bad going on here? they got rid of Fine when the allegations came out, and as long as they haven't been welcoming him back for further incidents with boys like our good friends at penn state, they should be ok on that one, id think. the fab melo thing, not great, happens a lot though, maybe they will lose some wins but they got him out before the NCAA tournament and that is a good thing.

i guess what i am seeing here is, none of the players Syracause playing in the drug scandal were ineligible by NCAA rules. they were ineligible by some internal rules, that weren't really followed. so syracuse doesnt follow syracuse rules. doesnt seem that bad to me, although im not sure how the NCAA looks at that.

i guess the extent is everything - im sure EVERY school in the nation (except maybe byu) has kids who have used  recreational drugs while there. i suspect MOST schools try to look the other way. really, i wonder how different the situation at syracuse is from anywhere else. its like, you know some of those kids are doing recreational drugs - but if you know, you are supposed to do something - so do what you can to not find out in the first place. but when you do, do the schools really come down hard? if so, i dont seem to hear about it. i think this is probably a universal thing here... keep it quiet, everybody knows, but nobody wants to hear about it!

Posted by coach_billyg on 3/20/2012 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Assuming all allegations made are true, I think Syracuse should receive an SMU-style death penalty and forfeit all wins dating back to 2001, which would include vacating the 2003 national championship. Between the drug testing, Bernie Fine scandal, and playing an ineligible player for much of this season, there's no question that this is the definition of lack of institutional control, and the program should be shut down. And I'm saying this as a Syracuse fan and supporter for the past 25 years.

wow, thats rough from a syracuse fan!! am i missing something that is really that bad going on here? they got rid of Fine when the allegations came out, and as long as they haven't been welcoming him back for further incidents with boys like our good friends at penn state, they should be ok on that one, id think. the fab melo thing, not great, happens a lot though, maybe they will lose some wins but they got him out before the NCAA tournament and that is a good thing.

i guess what i am seeing here is, none of the players Syracause playing in the drug scandal were ineligible by NCAA rules. they were ineligible by some internal rules, that weren't really followed. so syracuse doesnt follow syracuse rules. doesnt seem that bad to me, although im not sure how the NCAA looks at that.

i guess the extent is everything - im sure EVERY school in the nation (except maybe byu) has kids who have used  recreational drugs while there. i suspect MOST schools try to look the other way. really, i wonder how different the situation at syracuse is from anywhere else. its like, you know some of those kids are doing recreational drugs - but if you know, you are supposed to do something - so do what you can to not find out in the first place. but when you do, do the schools really come down hard? if so, i dont seem to hear about it. i think this is probably a universal thing here... keep it quiet, everybody knows, but nobody wants to hear about it!

There are problems with drugs at BYU as well.

One of the lineman from the 2001 season said between 13-20 starters were roiding in 2001, although most strength and conditioning coaches would tell you otherwise.

http://www.portlandtribune.com/sports/story.php?story_id=29338

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 11:50:00 AM (view original):
Assuming all allegations made are true, I think Syracuse should receive an SMU-style death penalty and forfeit all wins dating back to 2001, which would include vacating the 2003 national championship. Between the drug testing, Bernie Fine scandal, and playing an ineligible player for much of this season, there's no question that this is the definition of lack of institutional control, and the program should be shut down. And I'm saying this as a Syracuse fan and supporter for the past 25 years.

You cannot possibly be an SU fan, or if you are, you are really just an idiot.

In the other thread you compared this to Baylor, just like ESPN tired to. Really? At Baylor 1 player MURDERED another, and the coach had everyone else lie to cover up the fact that the coach had been playing the player. Syracuse self reported (almost 2 years ago) that as many as 10 players (in 10 years) may have played after testing for recreational drugs. Yes, the NCAA has no official policy but they do step in if a self-imposed policy is not properly followed. But this "investigation" has been underway for 2 yrs and nothing has happened. 

Bernie Fine - accuser #1 is Bobby Davis. #2 is his cousin Mike Lang. Lang denied he was abused when the internal investigation happened in 2003. There was no corroboration of Davis initial accusations until Lang changed his mind last year. Accuser #3 is Zach Tomaselli, a convicted child molester from Maine who has been proven a liar in every aspect of his story. He claimed his dad let him go on an unsupervised, overnight trip with the team shortly after meeting Fine. The team did not travel from Syracuse to the game in question (at Pittsburgh) because they had played on the road 2 days prior and traveled directly to Pittsburgh from there. On the day that Tomaselli claims to have been with Fine on the road his school attendance records show him in class. Every time he opens his mouth lies pour out. Here's the timeline of Tomaselli - His first action was to call in to the Colin Cowherd radio show where he told producers he too was molested by Fine. The producer got Tomaselli's contact info, and had reporter Mark Schwarz contact Tomaselli. Schwarz then had accuser #1 (Bobby Davis) call Tomaselli directly. AFTER that conversation between Tomaselli and Davis, Tomaselli called Syracuse police, stating not only had he gone on that road trip, but that on another occasion he had spent the night in Fine's house where Fine attempted to abuse him, but Tomaselli was able to turn him away. To verify this claim, he provided detailed descriptions of the interior of the Fine house. This, remember, was after speaking with Davis (who it was publicly known had "grown up" with the Fines and had spent countless hours in the Fine home and could easily have given Tomaselli his "verifying info"). At various times Tomaselli has admitted he lied to one news outlet (to keep his name in the story) then recanted that hours later to another outlet. He was already under arrest and awaiting sentancing for sexually abusing the teenage brother of a man he had been dating. Accuser #4 is a long time prison inmate who knew the Fines long ago and who added his story to the pile but later recanted in a later mailed to Fine (with a  slightly different copy sent to the press) wherein he claims he made up the accusation to get even with what he perceived to be a slight by Fine who, at the time of this accuser's original trial declined to provide money for legal assistance that the accuser felt could have helped him get less prison time. His letter admitted he made everything up out of spite and he begs for forgiveness. 

Davis (accuser #1) claims that he used to drive Laurie Fine (the wife of Bernie Fine) and the wife of another assistant coach to the players' dorms where the two wives would have sex with players. There has been nothing to corroborate any of these lurid accusations. He also apparently has borrowed or received money from Fine and not paid it back, causing a rift in the relationship between Fine and Davis. It is possible that FIne had some kind of untoward relationship with Davis, but the nature of it is unclear, and will likely never be known. There will be no trial or charges for Fine due to statutatory limitations on the time an accuser can bring charges for this offense. This means that not only will Fine not be found guilty of anything, he also will have no opportunity to have a court of law determine his innocence if he in fact did nothing illegal. 

I have no idea what supposedly ineligible player we played all this season. Is he talking about Fab Melo? If professor has some information on this that I don't I'd love to hear it. The NCAA ruled on Melo's eligibility in January after Melo missed those 3 games and ruled he was eligible. The NCAA states they had nothing to do with the school's decision to sit Melo for the tourney. I have no idea what the hell is going on with Melo, but it sure doesn't seem like SU is trying to hide anything or sweep anything under the rug, since they have twice now held the player out rather than risk playing an ineligible player.  The self-reported drug test issue concerns no players currently on the team according to officials. 

So instead of hyperbole and bullshit, lets look at facts.

Fact - a former ballboy, who came from a broken home and spent a lot of time as a youngster at the Fine residence, who later had an affair with Laurie Fine and who is known to have an outstanding $5000 loan/gift/something from Bernie Fine accused the coach of improprieties in 2000 and 2003. Syracuse police and an external law firm contracted by SU were both unable to verify his claims or corroborate his story. Penn State happened, and now suddenly every coach everywhere is a suspected rapist, and suddenly Davis is credible. The FBI has executed search warrants on Fine's home and offices at SU and while they confiscated boxes of something, has levied no charges. The Syracuse DA says no charges can be filed, but did state he found Davis and Lang "credible" and presumably that means he would prosecute if he could. The Syracuse DA is also a well-known publicity hound who, during the early stages of this story, got into a very public ******* match with the police over who had the bigger dick basically. His opinion on credibility is not, I don't believe, enough to convict someone. I am pretty sure that the Syracuse DA has prosecuted cases he has lost at trial. Presumably he felt those accusers and "victims" were credible as well, but the evidenciary responsibilities were not met. It would be very hard to win a conviction in this case (Davis and Lang) based upon the inconsistencies of prior statements and overall lack of concrete evidence. 

Fact - accusers #3 and 4 are lying. 

Fact - SU apparently has a program in place to test athletes for recreational drug use (a program that does not target the general student population or other types of school administered scholarships) and is therefore probably unconstitutional in the first place. It is alleged (no one has seen the actual report outside of the NCAA) that as many as 10 players (none on this season's team) were allowed to play after the athletic department (not necessarily Coach Boeheim) were informed the players had failed drug tests. The NCAA is likely to hand down some kind of punishment for this "violation" (you know, the one where some college kids smoke some weed) at some point as it is their (the NCAA's) policy that IF a school institutes its own drug testing program it must follow its own policies. 

Fact - Fab Melo was held out 3 games in January for an unspecified academic issue. he was cleared by the NCAA and played out the regular season and Big East tournament. On the eve of the NCAAs SU announced Melo was ineligible for the tourney. It was alluded that this was related to the initial suspension, but there has been no corroboration of that. The NCAA has issued a statement that the school, not the NCAA made this determination. Seth Davis has reported that this suspension is unrelated to the January event, while ESPN Big East blogger Dana O'Neil reports it IS related. I doubt we will ever know as the school keeps citing federal privacy laws and Melo has stopped tweeting or talking. 

So basically, to be calling for an SMU type penalty here, you have to think that playing some kids that flunked the school's independent marijuana policy over 10 years (the only thing SU is certain to have done in violation of any rules) exhibits a glaring lack of institutional control.  

I do apologize just a bit to professor. Ordinarily I believe everyone is entitled to their own (often ridiculous but whatever) opinion, and indeed when I saw the comments on al's thread I simply blocked professor. But billy had to dig deeper, so I felt compelled to respond. I have written numerous posts about this on the sbnation SU blog Troy Nunes is an Absolute Magician, and have done a lot of research, especially as regards the Bernie Fine case. I have no legal authority to back anything I say up, but I ask any doubters to do some independent research into my account of things before you try to come back at me...

Prosecution or not, the smoking gun is the recorded phone conversation with Laurie Fine.   There's no doubt  that she believes her husband is guilty. How that reflects on the athletic department is for others to decide.  I doubt that Boeheim knew about Bernie Fine's activities.  That's the main difference between Penn State and Syracuse.

I have never compared this situation to Baylor. On that, you must have me confused with another poster. As to the rest of it, I think I basically said everything you just said regarding the Fine situation. And I did preface my death penalty comments with "if all allegations are true".

I dont think that Syracuse should be punished over Fine. They did the proper thing and dismissed him and have been cooperating with the police. What else do you want them to do?

In terms of the drugs testing, the reason they can do it is because the athletes are receiving a full scholarship and I'm sure that there is a clause in the scholarship that prohibits drug use and allows for testing.

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 1:58:00 PM (view original):
I have never compared this situation to Baylor. On that, you must have me confused with another poster. As to the rest of it, I think I basically said everything you just said regarding the Fine situation. And I did preface my death penalty comments with "if all allegations are true".

fair enough if I've confused you on the Baylor issue.

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 1:58:00 PM (view original):
I have never compared this situation to Baylor. On that, you must have me confused with another poster. As to the rest of it, I think I basically said everything you just said regarding the Fine situation. And I did preface my death penalty comments with "if all allegations are true".

Playing an ineligible player and the drug testing are not nearly enough to give a program the death penalty. Look at a school like Illinois. They had numerous violations and were hit with a one year postseason ban and probation. As a result they brought in a new AD who cleaned house in the athletic department and have been squeaky clean ever since.

Posted by alblack56 on 3/20/2012 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Prosecution or not, the smoking gun is the recorded phone conversation with Laurie Fine.   There's no doubt  that she believes her husband is guilty. How that reflects on the athletic department is for others to decide.  I doubt that Boeheim knew about Bernie Fine's activities.  That's the main difference between Penn State and Syracuse.

al, I love you, you know that. 

Have you listened to the entire Laurie Fine tape? read the transcript? I have, both, many times.

At no time does Laurie fine intimate, acknowledge, allege or accuse her husband of child molestation. She does seem to denigrate his proclivities for men, and seems to indicate that Fine is a closeted homosexual. Davis tries to lead her into an acknowledgement that corroborates his claims, but she never quite goes there. There is also an undertone of something untoward in the tape, perhaps because Davis and Mrs. Fine had that sexual relationship. 

To be very clear, the tape is damning, but does not confirm molestation...

ETA: Laurie Fine's nephew also at one point stated that his aunt claimed the tape was not congruous and was perhaps cut together from multiple phone conversations. He claimed Laurie would make a statement regarding this, but no statement was ever made and the family clammed up after that. I am not alleging the tape is a fabrication, I am just stating what the nephew told the press. Even if it is not a fabrication I stand by my original analysis. 

Posted by professor17 on 3/20/2012 1:58:00 PM (view original):
I have never compared this situation to Baylor. On that, you must have me confused with another poster. As to the rest of it, I think I basically said everything you just said regarding the Fine situation. And I did preface my death penalty comments with "if all allegations are true".

professor - to go back to your preface regarding "all the allegations are true" : Are you including the allegation that Boeheim  knew about abuse occurring and looked the other way? If so, then I would have to agree, IF all those allegations are true, SU should suffer. However, Davis himself has changed his tune on that allegation. Originally Davis stated specifically that while on the road Boeheim looked into Fine's hotel room and saw (a fully clothed Davis) lying on Fine's bed with Fine watching TV. First, how that alone (a kid travelling with the Fine's who had spent many years in the Fine home and was along on the trip not as a rep of SU as a ball boy (those days had passed, and SU does not have ball boys travel) but instead as a family friend of the Fines and babysitter for the Fine children) could be seen as knowledge of abuse is curious. BUT, Boeheim denies even that allegation, saying he has never been inside Bernie Fine's hotel room on the road (make of that what you will) and that he never saw Davis with Fine in any kind of compromising or untoward scenario.

In fact, this is the basis of the Boeheim defense for the current lawsuit. Davis is alleging defamation because Boeheim called him a liar and out for money in that famous first press conference. The "liars" comment came in direct response to the allegation that Boeheim witnessed Davis in Fine's room. Davis later changed that claim, but still is alleging defamation, despite Boeheim's apology for his insensitivity to possible abuse victims. The lawsuit itself is another joke btw, but that's for a different thread I guess.