Hear me out...

We've all been under the impression that recruiting effort is one variable...this one variable apparently determines when you've given enough effort to get a recruit to consider you AND enough effort to get a recruit to favor you over another school.

for example, recruit A requires 20 accepted 'effort points' from you to consider him. if you put in 30, he'll consider you. if your opponent puts in 35 and has equal prestige, he'll consider your opponent as well and he'd be "winning". the presumption is that prestige is a multiplier of effort and that effort is all that matters.

what if each recruiting action has a "consideration" points and "preference" points...one possibility is ST's have 2 consideration points and 3 preference points, while HV's have 3 consideration points and 7 preference points. ST's are then not only good because they can't be rejected, but they actually have better value than HV's in terms of getting on a player's list...however in a battle, once you're both considered it just comes down to preference points.

to loop back here, what if your prestige is not just an "effort" multiplier, but the average of a "consideration" multiplier and a "preference" multiplier? say one school gets players drafted high so their invisible "consideration" prestige is high, but another school has postseason success and is the player's favorite school, so their invisible "preference" prestige is thus higher...and the visible prestige is just the average of these two?

what if prestige is actually a slew of numbers? this could explain all the confusion in battling (after all, what better way to make it impossible to isolate one variable than by making it a product of multiple?)

/mini-epiphany

What's the difference between considering points and preference points? They would have to convert against each other, such as 1 considering points = 2 pref points or w/e in order for you to weigh recruiting efforts. 

And what confusion in battling are you referring to? I personally haven't ran into a battle in which I inexplicably won/lost. 

I originally clicked on this thread hoping to dish out a smartass "Prestige is a letter, not a number" comment.

Turns out, I like this thread, and its ideas.

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/6/2012 11:21:00 PM (view original):
What's the difference between considering points and preference points? They would have to convert against each other, such as 1 considering points = 2 pref points or w/e in order for you to weigh recruiting efforts. 

And what confusion in battling are you referring to? I personally haven't ran into a battle in which I inexplicably won/lost. 

confusion as in nobody has really figured out the exact HV/CV ratio or prestige scale (prestige especially). sure we know pretty well who's going to win, but nobody has these numbers.

considering points get you and keep you on a player's "considering" list. they just get you in the game, so to speak.
preference points determine whom the player signs with.

the considering vs preference points idea is really just an example of how i think prestige could be a "function" of multiple numbers...numbers that can represent anything from recruiting prowess to home court improvement rate to job application success.

I don't think there is any chance this is the case.  In general I'd say anything that involved raising the complexity of the programming wouldn't be done unless it was seen as a feature, and there's no point creating a feature unless you advertise it as a feature.  WIS isn't out to make the game hard to figure out, they're out to make the game profitable by making it fun.  What would be the point of creating unnecessary and hidden complexity?  If they wanted to do something like what you're suggesting I think that without a doubt it would be not only known but advertised.

Seems like every few months in SLB forums some coach starts questioning whether there have to be hidden hot and cold streaks programmed into the SLB engine.  Whether certain players are "secretly" made better or worse across the board.  Whether momentum might really exist even though WIS has repeatedly said it does not.  The reality comes down to the fact that you wouldn't put in extra effort programming things like this into the game code unless you thought it made the game better, and if you thought it made the game better you would advertise it as a feature of the game.  I think it's a very safe assumption that prestige works exactly as everyone thinks it does, because that's the easiest way to make it work and that's how WIS says that it works.  Why would they tell us something worked the easiest way to program if they'd actually put in extra work making the system more complex?  Why would they go the more complex route if they didn't think more complex was better?  If they thought it was better, why wouldn't they tell us about it?  I just don't see the logic in it at all.

I do feel like I recall Seble saying something, not in the dev chat apparently but maybe in a high-level ticket response that was posted on here or something of that nature - that there is a small random factor in determining the outcome of battles.  I may be confusing different things, but if that is true it could easily account for the confusion to which you are alluding.

Posted by jetwildcat on 8/6/2012 11:27:00 PM (view original):
the considering vs preference points idea is really just an example of how i think prestige could be a "function" of multiple numbers...numbers that can represent anything from recruiting prowess to home court improvement rate to job application success.

Alot of coaches have pretty accurate info regarding the ratio of cv/hv and the multiplier for D1 prestige. 

Posted by jetwildcat on 8/6/2012 11:27:00 PM (view original):
the considering vs preference points idea is really just an example of how i think prestige could be a "function" of multiple numbers...numbers that can represent anything from recruiting prowess to home court improvement rate to job application success.

Again, in order for the engine to weigh both sides, these variables have to convert to a number. If a coach has 15 of var A and 27 of var B, while the other has 35 of A and 12 of B, how do you balance the equation? You have to have a factor such that Ax=B, where x is the factor. So in the end, all these various factors become one variable. 

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/6/2012 11:40:00 PM (view original):
I don't think there is any chance this is the case.  In general I'd say anything that involved raising the complexity of the programming wouldn't be done unless it was seen as a feature, and there's no point creating a feature unless you advertise it as a feature.  WIS isn't out to make the game hard to figure out, they're out to make the game profitable by making it fun.  What would be the point of creating unnecessary and hidden complexity?  If they wanted to do something like what you're suggesting I think that without a doubt it would be not only known but advertised.

Seems like every few months in SLB forums some coach starts questioning whether there have to be hidden hot and cold streaks programmed into the SLB engine.  Whether certain players are "secretly" made better or worse across the board.  Whether momentum might really exist even though WIS has repeatedly said it does not.  The reality comes down to the fact that you wouldn't put in extra effort programming things like this into the game code unless you thought it made the game better, and if you thought it made the game better you would advertise it as a feature of the game.  I think it's a very safe assumption that prestige works exactly as everyone thinks it does, because that's the easiest way to make it work and that's how WIS says that it works.  Why would they tell us something worked the easiest way to program if they'd actually put in extra work making the system more complex?  Why would they go the more complex route if they didn't think more complex was better?  If they thought it was better, why wouldn't they tell us about it?  I just don't see the logic in it at all.

I do feel like I recall Seble saying something, not in the dev chat apparently but maybe in a high-level ticket response that was posted on here or something of that nature - that there is a small random factor in determining the outcome of battles.  I may be confusing different things, but if that is true it could easily account for the confusion to which you are alluding.

I think whatifsports would find it very important to have the formulas complex enough that people can't figure them out

Posted by jetwildcat on 8/7/2012 11:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/6/2012 11:40:00 PM (view original):
I don't think there is any chance this is the case.  In general I'd say anything that involved raising the complexity of the programming wouldn't be done unless it was seen as a feature, and there's no point creating a feature unless you advertise it as a feature.  WIS isn't out to make the game hard to figure out, they're out to make the game profitable by making it fun.  What would be the point of creating unnecessary and hidden complexity?  If they wanted to do something like what you're suggesting I think that without a doubt it would be not only known but advertised.

Seems like every few months in SLB forums some coach starts questioning whether there have to be hidden hot and cold streaks programmed into the SLB engine.  Whether certain players are "secretly" made better or worse across the board.  Whether momentum might really exist even though WIS has repeatedly said it does not.  The reality comes down to the fact that you wouldn't put in extra effort programming things like this into the game code unless you thought it made the game better, and if you thought it made the game better you would advertise it as a feature of the game.  I think it's a very safe assumption that prestige works exactly as everyone thinks it does, because that's the easiest way to make it work and that's how WIS says that it works.  Why would they tell us something worked the easiest way to program if they'd actually put in extra work making the system more complex?  Why would they go the more complex route if they didn't think more complex was better?  If they thought it was better, why wouldn't they tell us about it?  I just don't see the logic in it at all.

I do feel like I recall Seble saying something, not in the dev chat apparently but maybe in a high-level ticket response that was posted on here or something of that nature - that there is a small random factor in determining the outcome of battles.  I may be confusing different things, but if that is true it could easily account for the confusion to which you are alluding.

I think whatifsports would find it very important to have the formulas complex enough that people can't figure them out

I think you think too highly of whatifsports.

Posted by ryrun on 8/7/2012 1:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jetwildcat on 8/7/2012 11:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 8/6/2012 11:40:00 PM (view original):
I don't think there is any chance this is the case.  In general I'd say anything that involved raising the complexity of the programming wouldn't be done unless it was seen as a feature, and there's no point creating a feature unless you advertise it as a feature.  WIS isn't out to make the game hard to figure out, they're out to make the game profitable by making it fun.  What would be the point of creating unnecessary and hidden complexity?  If they wanted to do something like what you're suggesting I think that without a doubt it would be not only known but advertised.

Seems like every few months in SLB forums some coach starts questioning whether there have to be hidden hot and cold streaks programmed into the SLB engine.  Whether certain players are "secretly" made better or worse across the board.  Whether momentum might really exist even though WIS has repeatedly said it does not.  The reality comes down to the fact that you wouldn't put in extra effort programming things like this into the game code unless you thought it made the game better, and if you thought it made the game better you would advertise it as a feature of the game.  I think it's a very safe assumption that prestige works exactly as everyone thinks it does, because that's the easiest way to make it work and that's how WIS says that it works.  Why would they tell us something worked the easiest way to program if they'd actually put in extra work making the system more complex?  Why would they go the more complex route if they didn't think more complex was better?  If they thought it was better, why wouldn't they tell us about it?  I just don't see the logic in it at all.

I do feel like I recall Seble saying something, not in the dev chat apparently but maybe in a high-level ticket response that was posted on here or something of that nature - that there is a small random factor in determining the outcome of battles.  I may be confusing different things, but if that is true it could easily account for the confusion to which you are alluding.

I think whatifsports would find it very important to have the formulas complex enough that people can't figure them out

I think you think too highly of whatifsports.

LOL this

Why do they care if people can figure them out as long as they seem to keep playing?  It's not like figuring out a very accurate value ratio of recruiting tools makes the game suddenly incredibly easy and that's all you need to know, now the game is boring...

The more complex the code, the more money it costs WIS.

Posted by jetwildcat on 8/6/2012 11:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tianyi7886 on 8/6/2012 11:21:00 PM (view original):
What's the difference between considering points and preference points? They would have to convert against each other, such as 1 considering points = 2 pref points or w/e in order for you to weigh recruiting efforts. 

And what confusion in battling are you referring to? I personally haven't ran into a battle in which I inexplicably won/lost. 

confusion as in nobody has really figured out the exact HV/CV ratio or prestige scale (prestige especially). sure we know pretty well who's going to win, but nobody has these numbers.

considering points get you and keep you on a player's "considering" list. they just get you in the game, so to speak.
preference points determine whom the player signs with.

there are methods you can use, other than my practiced and preached method of getting in battles, saving the results, figuring the variables... to nail down exactly (or within an acceptable small margin of error) what the value of HV:CV is as well as the value of prestige. if i had a d1 team i didnt care about, i might spend the time to get exact values, but i am already really comfortable with my values and im also pretty lazy now when it comes to HD. 

however, i strongly doubt i am the only coach who has figured out that there are ways to figure out the values of these things, i suspect some coaches out there have run the experiments and have the exact values.

Posted by jetwildcat on 8/6/2012 10:30:00 PM (view original):
Hear me out...

We've all been under the impression that recruiting effort is one variable...this one variable apparently determines when you've given enough effort to get a recruit to consider you AND enough effort to get a recruit to favor you over another school.

for example, recruit A requires 20 accepted 'effort points' from you to consider him. if you put in 30, he'll consider you. if your opponent puts in 35 and has equal prestige, he'll consider your opponent as well and he'd be "winning". the presumption is that prestige is a multiplier of effort and that effort is all that matters.

what if each recruiting action has a "consideration" points and "preference" points...one possibility is ST's have 2 consideration points and 3 preference points, while HV's have 3 consideration points and 7 preference points. ST's are then not only good because they can't be rejected, but they actually have better value than HV's in terms of getting on a player's list...however in a battle, once you're both considered it just comes down to preference points.

to loop back here, what if your prestige is not just an "effort" multiplier, but the average of a "consideration" multiplier and a "preference" multiplier? say one school gets players drafted high so their invisible "consideration" prestige is high, but another school has postseason success and is the player's favorite school, so their invisible "preference" prestige is thus higher...and the visible prestige is just the average of these two?

what if prestige is actually a slew of numbers? this could explain all the confusion in battling (after all, what better way to make it impossible to isolate one variable than by making it a product of multiple?)

/mini-epiphany

its an interesting idea but i dont think it works like that