Explain this game to me Topic

rogelio
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I thought that I understood this game, but I'm at a loss here.  Explain this game to me: www.whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx.  

I apologize in advance to hogstench, but, specifically note Hope's defensive gameplan & IQs.
10/25/2012 10:26 AM
hogstench
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You're cool man, I even said in the Coaches Corner that I'd be obliterized by you, lol - so, I fully feel your frustration ... at the same time though, this was a 3-2 fest and this is a defense I've tested and studied.  I've had pretty good success with the 3-2 in Rupp and Allen, so have guy's I've bloused my omnipotent knowledge upon regarding a 3-2 defense.  I can see this plain as day, like a picture on a wall.  I'll PM you later in the day on this and explain this one to you, and you'll probably say, "ahh, #*$&*".  I know you're already saying "$%#@#@" though ;)

10/25/2012 12:20 PM
coach_billyg
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dont read too much into it. the -5 - particularly when playing the zone - has always created some freaky and unreliable results. pair it with the slowdown and really anything can happen... and the difference in team quality is NOTHING like what overall ratings suggest.
10/25/2012 12:34 PM
milwood
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I'm not sure that he has a problem with the 3-2 at -5.  I get that you want your opponent to set up his team to shoot more from the inside and then you are favoring the inside with your defense.  That's easy, but to keep the game close, let alone win with those IQs is just ridiculous.  Hogs' players should have been bumping into each other with every pass and fouling like crazy.  rogelio hardly even got to the line.  I know the zone generally causes less fouls, but that is when your guys know how to play defense.
10/25/2012 12:40 PM
tianyi7886
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3-2 zone -5 is more like a m2m -2, or even -1. 
10/25/2012 12:40 PM
rogelio
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I appreciate the understanding hogstench.  I look forward to having the scales fall from my eyes.  I'm feeling much better now, but I still see that 3 assist to 9 turnover ratio and 23.8% shooting behind the arc as insane!

billyg - I can accept that there isn't that much difference in the player ratings on the floor, but my prediction would have been that the massive disparity in defensive IQs would have tilted the balance well into St. Thomas' favor.  I may finally have learned your lesson - that playing uptempo is just too risky a proposition.  I just want to be sure that that is the right lesson to learn.

tianyi - all else being equal, does that mean you'd anticipate relatively equally likelihood of foul trouble from those comparative settings along with how well the perimeter is covered versus the interior?  

10/25/2012 3:21 PM
coach_billyg
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oh, you ran uptempo? yeah... i wouldnt do that. the real lesson is not to read too much into 1 game. we've seen people lose games they were 99.99% to win. it just happens when HD runs you know, whatever, 10 thousand sims per day. i guess half that, 2 teams per game, but some 2 a day worlds... some worlds on break. anyway maybe 5k games/day or whatever the hell it is, anything can happen.

but when you take a notoriously volatile situation, a -5 zone, and combine with another notoriously volatile situation, uptempo vs slowdown, its really not surprising to see outcomes like this at all (i would guess without a doubt in a family feud style survey, those 2 would be the #1 and #2 answers for what are the notoriously volatile situations in a game). i agree, you should have won on average by a solid margin, but there is SO much volatility in this game, it doesnt even register on whatever my chart of surprising box scores ive seen is.
10/25/2012 3:59 PM
tianyi7886
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Not quite sure what you meant rogelio. 16 fouls isn't that much. I'm also a big fan of 3-2 zone -5 and 2-3 zone +5. 
10/25/2012 4:02 PM
darnoc29099
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Posted by tianyi7886 on 10/25/2012 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Not quite sure what you meant rogelio. 16 fouls isn't that much. I'm also a big fan of 3-2 zone -5 and 2-3 zone +5. 
Out of curiosity, do you place more emphasis in certain attributes (the one I'm most curious about is REB) in your SF when playing 3-2 (-5) or 2-3 (+5)?
10/25/2012 5:38 PM
tianyi7886
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Not really. I like them because they create extreme unbalance, very useful when you are behind in talent. 
10/25/2012 5:48 PM
hogstench
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I hit you up Rogelio, and yah - I agree with CBG and Tianyi on some of the points stated

Darn, in a 3-2 I like the SF to be a guard - don't care about REB ---  in a 2-3, I like the the SF to be a BIG with REB - No hybrids
10/25/2012 6:05 PM
milwood
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I like to have dominant rebounders (well in the 90s) from my 4 and 5 playing the zone.  It would be nice to have it at the three, but I typically would favor a guard that is a strong defender.  The reason I prefer that, and I know I am probably wrong about how the engine works, is that I feel that the SF is the swing defender in the zone.  In a 3-2 he helps defend the perimeter and in a 2-3 he helps out down low. 

I know another thread is dismissing the importance of speed, but I would also prefer decent speed from SF, and passing and ball handling, but that is mostly because I am paranoid about playing against press teams.

10/25/2012 6:26 PM
emy1013
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Posted by coach_billyg on 10/25/2012 3:59:00 PM (view original):
oh, you ran uptempo? yeah... i wouldnt do that. the real lesson is not to read too much into 1 game. we've seen people lose games they were 99.99% to win. it just happens when HD runs you know, whatever, 10 thousand sims per day. i guess half that, 2 teams per game, but some 2 a day worlds... some worlds on break. anyway maybe 5k games/day or whatever the hell it is, anything can happen.

but when you take a notoriously volatile situation, a -5 zone, and combine with another notoriously volatile situation, uptempo vs slowdown, its really not surprising to see outcomes like this at all (i would guess without a doubt in a family feud style survey, those 2 would be the #1 and #2 answers for what are the notoriously volatile situations in a game). i agree, you should have won on average by a solid margin, but there is SO much volatility in this game, it doesnt even register on whatever my chart of surprising box scores ive seen is.
This is about as good of an answer as you're going to get for what happened in your game.  Just a quick look at the teams and I would have thought that you should have won fairly easily, but there's always the part I quoted above.  It would seem that you got a VERY bad roll of the RNG dice last night (or whenever you played that game, didn't look at the date of it).

And by the way, had I been in your shoes, I would have been a little ****** also.  I've lost two NT title games in OT in the last couple of months (by 1 point and by 2 points) to teams that I honestly was better than.  One of the teams I had beaten in non-con play by double digits, on his home court to boot.  The other was pretty close to my team talent-wise, but I had a couple of mismatches that I tried to exploit, that unfortunately for me, didn't get exploited.  Bad games like this happen and I used to get REALLY ****** when I'd lose one that I should have won (like those two title games).  But then I remember that this is just a game, with a lot of faults, and you really just have to take the good with the bad, and let it ride. 
10/25/2012 10:35 PM (edited)
milwood
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There is a good chance that I am misunderstanding a lot of this thread.  I don't think rogelio is questioning the talent of the opposing team or the zone in general.  This was m2m team playing zone in this game.  The iqs for the starting five for hope:  pg C+, SG C, SF D+, PF D, C C.  

It's not that he thought he was better than the team (or maybe he did) but the fact that they were playing a defense that they didn't know or practice.

10/25/2012 11:36 PM
unlikelyhero
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maybe the 3-2 zone kinda compliments itself when you go -5. because naturally the 3-2 zone gives up a lot of inside looks so going -5 minimizes that, but then you still shoulda been able to capitalize on the 3 pointers, which you shot absolutely horridly from.  make 4 more threes at a 3 point percentage which you probably would have shot on average and you woulda won. 
10/25/2012 11:41 PM
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