Alright, I know I value passing more than the average bear.  And more than the average HD player.  Maybe more than virtually any other HD player.  But every time I've tried to investigate the role of passing in FG% in the current engine, I've been astounded at how significant it appears to be.  Comfortably into the double digits in some extreme cases.  So with that being said, has anyone else attempted to study this effect?  And would anyone else, for example, be starting Kenneth Macaulay over Cory Gatton?  Normally, like most coaches, I prefer to start the defensive stud and use the shooter off the bench at both guard positions.  But 21 points of passing is a lot.  Particularly when combined with 2 IQ steps.  And looking at my starters' offensive stats relative to their ratings and against the #16 SOS, it's hard for me to second-guess myself on this one too much.  As I said, though, I think VERY few other coaches would use the starting lineup I've been using.  So how much do you think passing is worth?

Short answer, because I am not at a computer, I love passing, but I don't notice an effect until it's really high. If the 80/80 guy wasn't so bad at defense, I would start him. At pg I figure 1 point of passing is roughly worth 1 of defense, unless the opponents can exploit your bad defender.

This makes sense in my head, when I get to a computer I will expand on this.

I'd say starting Macaulay worked out pretty well for me.  Again, I think this points towards the fact that most owners vastly underrate passing, particularly at the 1.  Or maybe I just got really lucky, who knows.

FWIW, if I'd run into a team with a really elite scoring PG I would have put Gatton into the starting lineup for that game.  It just never came up, in which I was quite lucky and for which quite thankful.

I'm beginning to suspect it's really important.  I think it may be 2-3x important as BH in some offenses.  That being said, I inadvertently ended up with really bad passing this year at Heidelberg, so we'll see how that turns out for me.  Really badly, so far.  I'd like to do a more detailed passing study, but it's one of the hardest things to analyze since it is reflected (at least) in one's teammates FG%, and there are dozens of other variables which influence that, too, many of which (like BH) are highly correlated with P.  

I know coach_billyg is a big advocate of BH in the Motion, and not as high in P in that offense.  At D2 I might agree, but at D3 all my good teams have had great passing PG's and good passing over all.  

i dont disagree as much as you might think. i do think motion relies MORE on bh and LESS on pass than in other sets, but that surely shouldnt be taken to suggest bh > pass for a motion pg.

i dont have much time so let me just preclude my comment with this - keep in mind even though i studied this game in great detail, and had great success based on raw understanding of the sim engine and how team composition played in - that was four years ago! a LOT has changed. especially with respect to this topic - passing wasnt even a factor in team mates' success. so just be careful with respect to comments i make or made in the past, with respect to areas where the game has changed. and even back then, when i was super in tune with the sim engine of the day, i still learned new things all the time, never got close to knowing everything.

anyway, what i want to say is this. back then, what i always pointed out for pgs was, spd/pass are by far the most important attributes. since then, spd got nerfed (especially with respect to the press, which 75% of people played), and pass got a boost. i DONT think seble really nerfed passing outside the impact on team mates' fg% when he added that component, although theres a good chance he did to some extent, i think overall, passing is clearly more valuable now than it was then. having discussed the topic with him, i think i largely got him to include that, the primary concern was how a great passing point guard didnt help your team shoot better. so in this day and age, taking those statements together, i would just guess, having never really looked, that passing is by far the most important stat for pgs of today, in any set.

the second point i want to throw in is that the role of bh has also changed. its up to the new generation of eager coaches to determine how, and to what extent. what i can say with confidence is, four years ago, bh/spd based guard scoring in the motion offense rocked. what does that mean today? who knows. so much has changed - in particular, we know for a fact, that lp did not have any impact. i believe strongly that back then, bh was that second offensive stat that played into the scoring inside, where per was lacking in impact. it was also very important for outside shooting. the role of lp, and also ath, it seems, has changed in terms of guard scoring. when you have big changes like that, increases in impact for some ratings, *something* has got to give - or else guard would be shooting 10% higher today than back then - which is not the case. what gave? everything - spd, per, and bh all took a hit, im confident in that. how was it split between the ratings, for various types of scoring? i dont know. if i was seble, id have taken some of passing's impact on TOs, gave it to BH, allowed passing to impact fg% of team mates (really more than passing, but passing in particular), and then taken some of the bh impact on inside scoring, and gave it to lp. of course, more complex than that, but i think that is so some extent what happened. but i really dont know - i havent researched anything except recruiting in depth, in the last 4 years, as 4 years ago i was so far ahead outside of recruiting, and so far behind in recruiting, that really is what kept me going this whole time. maybe BH didnt take some of passing's role in TOs and it just got nerfed. maybe passing got really beefed up, and now passing is way more important than bh across the board. its very possible - i just really dont know what the answer is there. i do think passing is underrated in the community today, clearly, it was always important but now its more so, that much, at least, is obvious. but the nuances of the changes to those ratings and how they impact performance, thats a much deeper study that i have not even attempted to take on!

I've noticed lower production from my best scorers when my PG isn't a great passer. Now I try to make sure my PG is as close to 90 pass as possible. But I don't ignore ball handling. I also like my bigs to be good passers, I just feel the offense is much better when you have good passers all around. Because of my focus on passing I'm consistently among the leaders in fewest turnovers. 

In the triangle offense I've noticed a few things I have decided are essentailly fact: 1) if you give your PG too much distro your entire offensive effenciency will suffer and 2) passing matters a lot more than BH at the 1.  I've played really fast, good passers at PG and had highly efficient offenses.  I've tried slower guys who weren't as good at passing but better at BH and better at defense and the whole offense seemed to suffer.  I agree that passing is highly underrated at the 1 relative to BH and I think some people default to the stud defender sometimes at the expense of passing when the better passer would have made the whole team better on offense to the extent that it far more than outweighed the hit on defense.

All that said, I still haven't managed to win a NT, so I clearly have a lot left to learn.

Had a pg once, name of wiggens - only averaged about four points a game. Was a bit slow for a point, above average ath, no shooting skills to speak of, but had a 100 passing and 80 something BH At d3- basically, when he got injured the teams shooting percentage dropped ten percent and their scoring took a dive off a cliff. And resumed again as soon as he came back

I thought that guy retired?  He's posting more now than when he played.  Someone get that guy a team and a gift certificate for five seasons and do it quickly before he **really** starts having HD withdrawals!

someone get that guy two teams!

Posted by emy1013 on 8/18/2013 1:18:00 AM (view original):
I thought that guy retired?  He's posting more now than when he played.  Someone get that guy a team and a gift certificate for five seasons and do it quickly before he **really** starts having HD withdrawals!

more than when i played? hmmm, i dont know about that one. at the lows of posting, i guess thats true, but i definitely feel like its less than it used to be. or maybe its that now i just post when i take the time to check the forums... instead of checking all the time without posting...

i do still love the idea of HD, and enjoy the more thought provoking issues that get raised here. and ive always said what keeps this game great, despite poor execution, is the people who play it (well, 95% of them, anyway). so i feel like now i get the best side of the deal without having to do anything. i figured it would take some time, but now im not sure ill ever go away completely :O sorry to those who are sad to hear that ;) it has been rather nice not having teams but still getting to drop in, kind of prefer this to having teams of my own... although i do miss d1 recruiting still... and i have to confess, i did check d1 tark this year to see if there was anything i couldnt resist applying to (there wasnt). so i might come back. or i might just pick up a team every 2 years so i can stay on the forums. with the seasons i have left over on these things, that should last me like... 80 years...