For a wing defender who do you think is better defensively:

Player 1:

ATH: 90
SPD: 71
DEF: 85
IQ C+

Player 2:
ATH: 47
SPD: 78
DEF: 93
IQ A-

and why if you don't mind....

Player 1. 40+ points of athleticism is a lot. The only thing giving me pause is IQ, but at C+, I think player 1 is close enough for his superior athleticism to cover it.

Just add the numbers up. Ath is first...

First has 30 pts more. I would play player 2 - less than 10 min a game

I like player 2 the best, and maybe that's why I suck at zone. But it's a big help if your other two backcourt guys have good athleticism. That IQ is a big difference. And i'm starting to favor speed in zone, over athleticism. Thanks to conversations with you guys actually.

so with 3 of the 4 being better for player 2 (speed defense and IQ), I'll take him.

Bonus points if you can pair him with other high athletic backcourt guys.

I prefer player one overall tho, but you just asked about a zone defender. Player 1 could be a Freshman at the end of season one with growth still coming. Player 2 could be a beginning of the year senior, and maxed out already.

“i'm starting to favor speed in zone, over athleticism”

This isn’t very controversial when talking about guards in any set. A lot of people (most, probably) look at speed first for guards. But in this case, the enormous athleticism difference overwhelms slight advantages in speed and defense, and IMO also covers a significant advantage in IQ.

If you consider athleticism a constant, and value speed and defense 20% more important for guards in a zone, then the difference between speed ends up around 8-9, and the difference in defense ends up about 10 points in favor of player 2. That’s 18-19 points of speed and defense, against 43 points of athleticism. No contest, IMO. The IQ makes it closer, but not that close.

Depends on how you weigh the attributes. If you do DEF 45%, SPD 35%, ATH 20% it comes out about equal .

If you do SPD 35% DEF 35% ATH 30% it something like 101 to 94 the first guy and then the second guy needs to only get a 10% boost from IQ to be better.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/31/2018 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Depends on how you weigh the attributes. If you do DEF 45%, SPD 35%, ATH 20% it comes out about equal .

If you do SPD 35% DEF 35% ATH 30% it something like 101 to 94 the first guy and then the second guy needs to only get a 10% boost from IQ to be better.

I do ath, def, spd. Even for guards.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/31/2018 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Depends on how you weigh the attributes. If you do DEF 45%, SPD 35%, ATH 20% it comes out about equal .

If you do SPD 35% DEF 35% ATH 30% it something like 101 to 94 the first guy and then the second guy needs to only get a 10% boost from IQ to be better.

I’m no mathematician. Can you explain how those percentages work to get those numbers, so I can follow your logic? In the first example, I’m getting 81-78 in favor of player 1; in the second, I’m getting 82-70 in favor of player 1. I’m probably oversimplifying, just taking the numbers you gave, and modifying based on your hypothetical percentages, then re-adding..

Posted by zorzii on 7/31/2018 1:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/31/2018 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Depends on how you weigh the attributes. If you do DEF 45%, SPD 35%, ATH 20% it comes out about equal .

If you do SPD 35% DEF 35% ATH 30% it something like 101 to 94 the first guy and then the second guy needs to only get a 10% boost from IQ to be better.

I do ath, def, spd. Even for guards.

Like I said, even if you consider speed and defense 20% more valuable than athleticism for guards in a 3-2, player 1 is head and shoulders above. To consider them anywhere close to even, it seems to me you have to believe speed and defense to be FAR more important than athleticism for guards in a 3-2. I don’t think there is necessarily a “correct” interpretation here, but that seems pretty extreme to me.

Posted by shoe3 on 7/31/2018 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Trentonjoe on 7/31/2018 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Depends on how you weigh the attributes. If you do DEF 45%, SPD 35%, ATH 20% it comes out about equal .

If you do SPD 35% DEF 35% ATH 30% it something like 101 to 94 the first guy and then the second guy needs to only get a 10% boost from IQ to be better.

I’m no mathematician. Can you explain how those percentages work to get those numbers, so I can follow your logic? In the first example, I’m getting 81-78 in favor of player 1; in the second, I’m getting 82-70 in favor of player 1. I’m probably oversimplifying, just taking the numbers you gave, and modifying based on your hypothetical percentages, then re-adding..

Hold please, my back of a napkin math might be off...

Player 1 (45% DEF, 35% Speed, ATH 20%)
ATH: 90*.2= 18
SPD: 71*.35= 24.85
DEF: 85*.45= 38.25
TOTAL= 81.1
IQ C+

Player 2:
ATH: 47*.2= 9.4
SPD: 78*.35= 27.3
DEF: 93*.45=41.85
Total= 78.45


Player 1 (Speed 35%, Def 35%, Ath 30%)
ATH: 90*.3= 27
SPD: 71*.35=24.85
DEF: 85*.35=29.75
Total= 81.6
IQ C+

Player 2:
ATH: 47*.3= 14.1
SPD: 78*.35=27.3
DEF: 93*.35=32.55
Total= 73.95

So 81 to 78.5 in the first equation and 82 to 74 in the second. I think that's right.

Haha, my own back of the envelope math was off. You’re right, 74, not 70.

That's NOT how you would do the math...

But at any rate, given that the speed (78-71) and defense (85-93) are relatively equal, that SIGNIFICANT athleticism difference makes player 1 the better option even with the IQ differential of about 15-20 pts.

Posted by iamjoeyd on 7/31/2018 2:51:00 PM (view original):
That's NOT how you would do the math...

But at any rate, given that the speed (78-71) and defense (85-93) are relatively equal, that SIGNIFICANT athleticism difference makes player 1 the better option even with the IQ differential of about 15-20 pts.

I value speed and defense each 20% higher than athleticism for guards in my press/zone schemes. The way I do the math is using player roles, I have athleticism at 15 for guards, with speed and defense at 18.

FWIW, that is essentially how you do the math (at least, it’s how WIS does the math). If you go into player roles, create a new player role, and zero out all the non-relevant attributes, leaving only ath, spd, and def, and plug in the numbers TJ proposes, they come out right where he suggests, within a tenth or twentieth of a point. (He’s using Aquino and Guerrera from his Fordham team).

Also FWIW, using 15-18-18, as I do, they come out 81.5 to 74.2.