Is it me or is it the most irrelevant of the fielding ratings? I haven’t been able to draw a correlation between it and cERA but maybe it impacts walks. Do you agree? What do you think are the most overrated hitting and pitching ratings?

Yep. Long ago I ditched defensive catchers. Someone will come on here and they will say they have proof it is the difference in half a run every 5 games or somthing but it’s just not worth it to me. I’ll put DH bats at C

I’m sure people will argue (because people love to argue) but GB/FB is useless in pitching and push/ pull in hitting means nothing to me. Same with velocity.

Just for the sake of argument (:P), the only thing you said that I agree with is that velocity is useless in pitching.

Posted by hockey1984 on 4/11/2022 9:19:00 AM (view original):
Yep. Long ago I ditched defensive catchers. Someone will come on here and they will say they have proof it is the difference in half a run every 5 games or somthing but it’s just not worth it to me. I’ll put DH bats at C

I’m sure people will argue (because people love to argue) but GB/FB is useless in pitching and push/ pull in hitting means nothing to me. Same with velocity.

Agree with all of this, including the useless pitcher ratings.

As long as PC >45 I focus solely on hitting for a catcher. I try not to say any of this out loud though so that people will continue to pay for all these attributes that are mostly worthless.

Where does the player fit into the context of your team?

hockey1984 and I make the same play: In the National League, without a DH, if I have a C with "only" 40-something PC but a good bat, I can save more runs by playing a (dirt cheap) glove-only SS and sacrificing the bat at that position. If your lineup is stacked enough that you can play a (dirt cheap) glove-only C with 89 PC, then that's your play instead.

While I don't think ratings like PC, GB, push/pull and velocity are irrelevant. I do think they are all secondary ratings that mean vey little when benchmarked against the more primary ratings.

PC
There are many types of C's. The big bat C that is not very good behind the plate at all, but gives you .850+ OPS. The well rounded C that still gives you 800 OPS and has just above league average defense. The Big PC C that can't hit and can't throw. The extreme defensive C with 80+ in arm, arm strength and PC, but can't hit. The DITR C that is well rounded, but lacks arm strength. What I've found is that many of the above work out fine. The only ones I stay away from are the ones that have a big PC (85+), but below rec in arm and arm strength and can't hit. If you're going to go with a Defensive C that can't hit, make sure he has it all on defense. It doesn't make much sense to have a. .600 OPS bat in the lineup unless he is both helping the pitcher and preventing base stealing.

Velocity
I think in extreme hitters parks, the velocity rating can help as long as the pitcher also has good control, splits and pitches. You don't want to target pitchers with 60 splits, 70 pitches and 95+ velocity, but the pitcher with 75 across the board primary ratings and a velocity rating of 90+ will likely make a difference compared to the same pitcher with a below 30 rating in velocity. Velocity gives the pitcher an uptick in K's. More K's, less balls in play that the stadium can turn into hits or homeruns.

GB
The groundball rating is likely the most significant secondary rating. However, it works much better in tandem with great infield defense. Having a high groundball rate and a below rec SS or 2B doesn't do you much good.

Push/pull
Likely the least significant secondary rating. I used it in Wichita when I was trying to be cute. I tried to load up my lineup with Leftie pull hitters or rightie push hitters to take advantage of the difference between the LF wall and RF wall. My issue with it is that it's a secondary rating. It should not be something that is solely focused on.

Posted by bjschumacher on 4/11/2022 11:10:00 AM (view original):
Just for the sake of argument (:P), the only thing you said that I agree with is that velocity is useless in pitching.

I knew it was going to be either you or tlowsrer. XD XD

I don't really call it an argument unless there are two or more distinctive counter points of view that are at odds with each other. I'm mostly agreeing with all of the above. I just stop short of calling the secondary ratings irrelevant.

I will say, though, that I've relaxed on the PC rating quite a bit over the past few years. In my early years of HBD I was all about PC ratings over 80, and was convinced that was the reason I could get low priced pitchers on the FA market and have them turn in decent seasons. But these days, I occasionally have a catcher with a PC rating as low as the mid 40s, and am still able to get low priced pitchers on the FA market who turn in decent seasons. So, yeah.

It actually makes me sad to be honest because I used to love getting defensive catchers in rounds 4 and 5. Guys that hit 220 but had an arm, accuracy and PC all over 85. I had always planned to have a catching starter and a catching ‘closer’. Then I noticed it wasn’t enough of a difference for me to notice. So I try to platoon hitting catchers. One that is great vsl and one vsr.

Posted by damag on 4/11/2022 11:53:00 AM (view original):
Where does the player fit into the context of your team?

hockey1984 and I make the same play: In the National League, without a DH, if I have a C with "only" 40-something PC but a good bat, I can save more runs by playing a (dirt cheap) glove-only SS and sacrificing the bat at that position. If your lineup is stacked enough that you can play a (dirt cheap) glove-only C with 89 PC, then that's your play instead.

Also you make a great point. There are already few enough bats in the lineup. Even fewer in the NL. So I accept that my CF and SS are auto outs. My 2B is actually probably the position I focus on the most because it’s possible I find to get a defensive 2B that hits. But I’m ok if the 2B is an auto out because they are middle infield. With all of those auto outs, my catcher has to hit. I can’t have 5 of my 9 batters as total plugs.

I tend to think of PC in the same boat as coaching. There's so many external factors in play, that it's hard to truly grasp the value of it. I invest in both because I do feel like there is value there, and just because I don't know it as clearly as other things, doesn't necessarily mean it's not there. But I wouldn't die on that hill.

The way I deal with catcher is try to platoon 2 cheap guys; in a perfect world, the guy who plays against RHP is a "hitting catcher" and the guy against LHP is a "defensive catcher." But unless I get a guy who can both hit and field I'm not spending money at C. I'll instead spend the money not having "auto-outs" at CF and SS, trying to get guys who are above average but not Gold Glove fielders and who can manage a somewhat credible OPS (mid 700s in CF, around 700 at SS).

Hitting: I don’t put much stock in pull/push, hits are hits unless I have a ballpark which favors one side. Pitching: I discount flyball/groundball but keep in mind based on my D and park. Fielding: agree pitch calling is the most useless. I have a trio of potentially good hitting catchers in Low A and Rookie (just drafted). Arms project a tick under league average. Pitch calling somewhere between 35-40. Can I get by with that or will it be a significant hit?

Posted by mg050369 on 4/13/2022 1:56:00 PM (view original):
Hitting: I don’t put much stock in pull/push, hits are hits unless I have a ballpark which favors one side. Pitching: I discount flyball/groundball but keep in mind based on my D and park. Fielding: agree pitch calling is the most useless. I have a trio of potentially good hitting catchers in Low A and Rookie (just drafted). Arms project a tick under league average. Pitch calling somewhere between 35-40. Can I get by with that or will it be a significant hit?

You can get by with 40 PC.