I don't know why the SIM can't add more triples to a deadball pitchers performance; based on avg triples hit that year; to offset no hr allowed.
And doubles,for that matter; if the league doubles are particularly high

Triples allowed by deadball pitchers is something I have suggested to admin on multiple occasions. The deadball hitters always underperform their real life triples, even in a low cap league.

Really stupid question by me here. After playing this for 20yrs, I didnt realize there is an issue. The guys like Hornsby, Cuyler and Cobb always get their fair share as well as others. Are you saying there overall is a material difference vs. RL? Ive never noticed but just asking. Its also the most rare occassion in baseball so wondering if that is the #1 priority vs. other items they have not address. Again, just a question not trying to be ignorant here.

Hey Creep. Good to see you're still around.

Posted by The_Creeper on 9/29/2024 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Really stupid question by me here. After playing this for 20yrs, I didnt realize there is an issue. The guys like Hornsby, Cuyler and Cobb always get their fair share as well as others. Are you saying there overall is a material difference vs. RL? Ive never noticed but just asking. Its also the most rare occassion in baseball so wondering if that is the #1 priority vs. other items they have not address. Again, just a question not trying to be ignorant here.

yes, its the reverse of how home run hitters from the 1910s and 1920s (Cravath, Ruth, Cy Williams) will overperform real life home run totals in open leagues.

2007 Curtis Granderson (23 real life triples) is averaging 31 triples per season in open leagues. Meanwhile 1912 Chief Wilson (major league record 36 triples in 1912) is only averaging 21 triples per season in open leagues.

Triples is different than home runs. A guy like Cravath wouldn't necessarily overperform his home run total if all he faced was deadball pitching.

If you played a full replay of the 1912 season (a season with one of the highest rate of triples) and used the actual teams from 1912, you would find that almost all the triples hitters would fall well below their actual totals. (A number of years ago, I actually ran a 1912-only $70M theme and proved that this was true).

The same can't be said if you replayed a season like 2000.

The difference is that the 2000 pitchers will allow homeruns to home run hitters. There is no built in era-adjusted "triples-allowed" rate for pitchers. All pitchers are essentially programmed the same for doubles/triples allowance rates (relative to their OAV).

A simple fix would be to program deadball pitchers to allow more triples. I have suggested this to admin. They don't seem to care or think it's important enough to bother with.

We're in season 23 of a progressive that started in 1901..it's got a few different rules than a typical prog, but we've certainly had a ton of triples.

Here are the top 25 single-season totals, through 1923:

Rank	Name	SN	G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	SO	HBP	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS	STRK	L STRK
1	Cree, Birdie	1911	162	593	135	226	25	37	4	104	92	34	11	20	16	.381	.472	.568	1.040	3	13
2	Leach, Tommy	1902	162	668	123	230	20	37	9	119	45	17	11	6	5	.344	.393	.525	.918	4	12
3	Hornsby, Rogers	1921	162	690	173	269	43	31	17	167	72	56	7	2	1	.390	.451	.616	1.067	5	15
4	Wilson, Chief	1912	162	671	118	206	31	28	10	109	40	77	5	3	6	.307	.348	.481	.829	9	11
5	Flick, Elmer	1906	162	647	133	216	39	27	1	82	74	22	9	61	26	.334	.409	.482	.891	2	12
6	Lush, Billy	1903	150	616	113	187	21	25	1	74	92	11	1	0	1	.304	.395	.424	.819	0	19
7	Flick, Elmer	1905	158	565	120	188	32	24	9	125	104	14	6	31	34	.333	.439	.522	.961	0	17
8	Doyle, Larry	1911	157	591	102	189	22	24	13	109	86	43	5	15	15	.320	.410	.504	.914	0	10
9	Stahl, Chick	1904	162	651	118	178	25	24	2	40	111	22	7	0	0	.273	.384	.395	.779	1	11
10	Parent, Freddy	1903	162	731	117	228	30	24	6	116	17	21	11	0	0	.312	.336	.443	.780	0	15
11	Collins, Eddie	1910	160	703	154	266	24	23	3	80	77	22	6	4	1	.378	.443	.491	.934	1	24
12	Magee, Sherry	1908	159	615	83	190	28	23	2	118	65	19	9	21	14	.309	.380	.439	.819	2	12
13	Donlin, Mike	1903	160	678	123	240	23	23	11	132	61	26	4	18	14	.354	.409	.504	.914	10	14
14	Strunk, Amos	1915	160	670	118	227	40	22	4	134	61	51	4	1	2	.339	.396	.482	.878	0	29
15	Cobb, Ty	1917	162	693	161	275	37	22	9	106	60	36	6	12	9	.397	.448	.553	1.001	6	39
16	Crawford, Sam	1901	160	663	120	249	30	22	17	158	54	21	4	0	0	.376	.423	.564	.987	0	30
17	Crawford, Sam	1912	161	658	113	205	25	22	4	92	45	24	4	24	16	.312	.359	.435	.793	0	13
18	Wagner, Honus	1912	158	664	152	208	30	22	8	92	71	36	8	10	8	.313	.384	.461	.845	3	21
19	Baker, Frank	1912	156	670	165	242	33	22	22	207	62	31	7	0	0	.361	.417	.575	.992	5	15
20	Cobb, Ty	1922	152	633	182	268	62	21	6	133	61	24	4	2	1	.423	.476	.616	1.093	0	23
21	Veach, Bobby	1922	162	691	126	239	38	21	12	133	54	33	2	5	1	.346	.392	.514	.906	5	16
22	Seybold, Socks	1902	162	674	134	210	33	21	18	122	77	17	9	0	0	.312	.387	.503	.890	0	23
23	McGann, Dan	1905	156	614	111	211	22	21	2	102	70	19	12	21	27	.344	.421	.458	.879	0	12
24	Freeman, Buck	1902	162	639	89	203	37	21	7	135	57	15	1	14	22	.318	.374	.474	.848	0	14
25	Cobb, Ty	1922	152	633	182	268	62	21	6	133	61	24	4	2	1	.423	.476	.616	1.093	0	23

When I have time, I'll try to go through and assess the number of 3B/PA for each season, and how that compared to each actual MLB season.

A far bigger problem for me, is strikeouts in the deadball era. Strikeout totals, especially in our first few seasons were way way way off. One consequence is that with many more balls in play, we had way too many DPs. 1901 Jake Beckley hit into 50 DP, for example. I think the MLB record is something like 35...

That's 25 players with over 20 triples in 23 seasons, roughly one per player season. How many players hit more than 20 triples in real life over those 23 years? My guess is way more than 25 players.

How about picking a single season and do a real life vs sim stat comparison for singles, doubles, triples, home runs for batters and see which sim stat is closest and farthest from the real life number. Of course, ballpark selection could skew numbers in one direction or the other.

Posted by contrarian23 on 9/30/2024 11:23:00 AM (view original):
When I have time, I'll try to go through and assess the number of 3B/PA for each season, and how that compared to each actual MLB season.

A far bigger problem for me, is strikeouts in the deadball era. Strikeout totals, especially in our first few seasons were way way way off. One consequence is that with many more balls in play, we had way too many DPs. 1901 Jake Beckley hit into 50 DP, for example. I think the MLB record is something like 35...

The number of DPs is directly related to the higher propensity of A+++ range guys. Of course, these players weren't necessarily better at getting to balls than modern fielders.

My guess is that the algorithm used to calculate range does not adjust for era (or strikeouts). So, due to more strikeouts in the modern era, there are fewer great range fielders now, while there are way fewer strikeouts in the deadball era, and so guys range factors in the deadball era are artificially inflated.

I haven't done a study, but I would bet the rate of A+ range fielders is much higher in the deadball era than modern era.

Posted by schwarze on 9/30/2024 11:31:00 AM (view original):
That's 25 players with over 20 triples in 23 seasons, roughly one per player season. How many players hit more than 20 triples in real life over those 23 years? My guess is way more than 25 players.

How about picking a single season and do a real life vs sim stat comparison for singles, doubles, triples, home runs for batters and see which sim stat is closest and farthest from the real life number. Of course, ballpark selection could skew numbers in one direction or the other.

There may be a few more than 25 players in our league who did so...but of course our leaderboard only shows 25 players for any category...I can go back season by season and look.

According to b-r.com, there are 113 players in history who have hit 20+ triples in a season. 36 of them happened in the 1901-1923 time period. That probably understates the difference, since in WIS, all teams play 162 games vs the 154 that was the MLB norm, and of course because of the way fatigue works, our players routinely get more PA than their RL counterparts.

I'm not suggesting this is not an issue to be fixed. I _am_ suggesting that (a) it's not a dire problem...I can think of a half-dozen things more pressing in my opinion. I can understand why site staff might not see this one as a priority. Assuming they ever plan on making ANY updates, of course. WHich at this point seems an uncertain assumption.

Update...I just counted season by season. 37 players hit 20+ triples in a season in our league from 1901-23. Compared to 36 in MLB.

I would tend to agree w/ C23 on this one. There are MANY more things that in my mind are more important than if someone gets 24 or 17 triples. Just a few that I think mess with the integrity here.

• SP fatigue - I know deadball guys pitched 350-400 innings. 45-50 starts of 8 innings on average. However, the SP fatigue algorithm (I think) does not apply a penalty until the SP pitches in 70% of games. So for example. You can have Walter Johnson starting 75 games and 6-7 innings in each. NO WAY anyone could pitch every other day and be effective. Not then, Not now. Applaud those who exploit it but a gap to be addressed.
• SP fatigue - I once had the great Tom Seaver year (1971 I think) pitch 26 innings against me in a 4 game WS (9, 8, 9) and give up 1 ER. I dont think 3 starts in 4 games throwing 100+ pitches should be allowed without applying some penalty. Yes, he started each at 100% and I had a good offense.
• BBs appear to be determined by hitter. I have had Eck who walked 3 in like 80 innings average 3/9ip in progressives that included Bonds, Ruth, Mantle, etc. We know Bonds walks were mostly IBB, I dont know that others were. Control pitchers wouldnt just lose their control depending on the batter but wouldnt be pitching around Ruth if Foxx, Mantle, Gehrig were hitting behind them.

OK, done whining.

The plate appearance outcome is weighed more in the batters favor. They released the event tree a few years ago (15?) and the hitters influence was something like 55% .