Curious as to whether anybody has ever run any objective statistical analysis re: player fatigue settings. How much does a player's play drop off when they are "tired" or "very tired?" 10% 20% more?

Seems to me, that a good deal of people keep their starters at "getting tired" (or even "fairly fresh"), which generally nets the player about 22-25 min's per game (based on various factors). At least that's what I genrally default to, and I don't think I am alone there.

However, in RL, you routinely see guys play 30-35 min/game.

Is the general consensus that starters get ~22-25/min per game, and backup backup ~15-18/min per game just because HD doesn't always seem to have a huge drop off from starters to backups? Also, it seems that HD requires more of a stringent 10 or man rotation (9 can work too), but in RL, a team could get by with 8 players - I don't think you can be successful with an 8 man rotation in HD...

OR are we just too afraid of the fatigue settings to play a player when they are "tired?" I know I am, and that is why I never take a player down there, but really, how much would his ability be affected by playing him at that level?

Just curious as to some thoughts and objective findings.

I think I remember some anecdote about how admin -- a long time ago -- ran a simulation of 2 teams with the same ratings across the board (think it was 99) that played heads up a bunch of times. The fresh team subbed at FF, the tired team subbed at VT. The avg. margin of victory was like 50 pts. Maybe one of the true vets remembers the details better than me.

So some of my key players - usually upperclassmen with ST > 90 -- I'll go GT, figuring even at a 10% (that's what I use to approximate things, right or wrong) degradation of skill, they'll still be better than my backups. It seems to work fine. But most of my players are usually at FF.

And of course it goes w/o saying that it works esp. well if you go slowdown so you can really milk your better players.

I agree that in RL kids routinely play 30-35 mins or more if they're real studs. The hockey style subs in HD do sort of grate on me. Wish the game was more realistic in this regard.

This is not a very scientific answer, but things have generally turned out pretty poorly for me when I've dipped into the "tired" or "very tired" range, so I generally never go below "getting tired" except in extreme circumstances.

I think the other thing to keep in mind is that players get better based on how much they play. If you have a guy getting 30+ minutes a game somebody else is missing out on their development, and if they are a soph. or junior are probably ******** about PT.

Fairly Fresh for almost everyone. I usually have a couple guys on Getting Tired, usually my best big and guard for sure.

Quote: Originally Posted By jdno on 10/27/2009 "admin -- a long time ago -- ran a simulation of 2 teams with the same ratings across the board (think it was 99) that played heads up a bunch of times. The fresh team subbed at FF, the tired team subbed at VT. The avg. margin of victory was like 50 pts. Maybe one of the true vets remembers the details better than me."

I had no idea about this. Interesting...

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 10/27/2009

Fairly Fresh for almost everyone. I usually have a couple guys on Getting Tired, usually my best big and guard for sure.

My problem with Fairly Fresh is that I get starters with something like 21 minutes sometimes (even with 85-90+ stamina...I run a press though). That drives me nuts, because sometimes a Senior guard is that much better than the Soph backup. In a perfect world, I would divy it up about 25/15 for playing time, which is why I would love target minutes if it wasn't such a huge disadvantage.

Quote: Originally Posted By john_mills on 10/27/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 10/27/2009

Fairly Fresh for almost everyone. I usually have a couple guys on Getting Tired, usually my best big and guard for sure.

My problem with Fairly Fresh is that I get starters with something like 21 minutes sometimes (even with 85-90+ stamina...I run a press though). That drives me nuts, because sometimes a Senior guard is that much better than the Soph backup. In a perfect world, I would divy it up about 25/15 for playing time, which is why I would love target minutes if it wasn't such a huge disadvantage.

Then move your stud Senior guard to Getting Tired. I don't understand what you problem here is. Your stud Senior guard can only play half the game at a 'Fresh' level? Seems right to me.

and... has anyone ever documented what jmills refers to --- that anyone using target minutes would be at a huge disadvantage?

i feel quite certain this is the case also, unless something has changes. but i havent tried it in a long long time.

is it possible it got fixed somewhere along the way?

Quote: Originally Posted By oldave on 10/27/2009and... has anyone ever documented what jmills refers to --- that anyone using target minutes would be at a huge disadvantage?

i feel quite certain this is the case also, unless something has changes. but i havent tried it in a long long time.

is ti possible it got fixed somewhere along the way/

olddave - i am pretty certain i remember seeing something in a developer chat that target minutes is not as effective as the fatigue settings because target minutes does a poor job of substituting at the appropriate times (e.g. guys get too tired).

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 10/27/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By john_mills on 10/27/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 10/27/2009

Fairly Fresh for almost everyone. I usually have a couple guys on Getting Tired, usually my best big and guard for sure.

My problem with Fairly Fresh is that I get starters with something like 21 minutes sometimes (even with 85-90+ stamina...I run a press though). That drives me nuts, because sometimes a Senior guard is that much better than the Soph backup. In a perfect world, I would divy it up about 25/15 for playing time, which is why I would love target minutes if it wasn't such a huge disadvantage.

Then move your stud Senior guard to Getting Tired. I don't understand what you problem here is. Your stud Senior guard can only play half the game at a 'Fresh' level? Seems right to me.

I should just repeat what you type, as I don't know why you are suddenly offended. I wasn't complaining in the least. If you don't like a topic, it isn't necessary that you post on the topic just to be heard. Sometimes, when people speak less, it carries more weight with an audience when they do speak up.

I was actually trying to have intelligent discoure regarding fatigue settings. I believe the first post asked for any objective analysis people had done on the drop off of production the more tired a player gets. To be more specific, I wonder if, similar to injuries, is a player playing at only about 70% of their ratings/abilities when they get into the "tired" or "very tired" level? That is, if anybody has ever tracked such results and/or had any ideas on it. I am simply curious as to their thoughts/findings.

Not answering any question but way way back in HD history coaches had a problem with the colors indicating tiredness. Seems most coaches expected a guy in the red to be crawling, about to die, while the designer originally had red meaning "most anyone on the bench" would do better. This was fixed by making the colors change slower - no difference to how fast you fatigued just the indicator color. I was amused.

Continue please.

Jp you were saying that you think your guys should be able to play more then half of a game at a 'Fresh' level and that would be very unrealistic.

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 10/28/2009Jp you were saying that you think your guys should be able to play more then half of a game at a 'Fresh' level and that would be very unrealistic

Please quote where I said that, as that has not been the point of this post in the least.

To alleviate any confusion here, I do not think that guys should not get tired.

I am merely trying to discuss the severity of the hit on ratings/performance when coaches play guys when they are "tired" or "very tired."

Quote: Originally Posted By john_mills on 10/27/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 10/27/2009

Fairly Fresh for almost everyone. I usually have a couple guys on Getting Tired, usually my best big and guard for sure.

My problem with Fairly Fresh is that I get starters with something like 21 minutes sometimes (even with 85-90+ stamina...I run a press though). That drives me nuts, because sometimes a Senior guard is that much better than the Soph backup. In a perfect world, I would divy it up about 25/15 for playing time, which is why I would love target minutes if it wasn't such a huge disadvantage.

Please explain to me how I misread that? Stop blasting me for responding to your comments.