**WARNING - LONG RANT BELOW**

I don't respond in these forums nearly as much as I used to and I am just about ready to quit them altogether. I am really getting tired of posting responses or reading other veteran coaches responses and then having someone ask for proof. It is really annoying and disrespectful. Are we vets so unreliable that nothing we say can be taken at face value?

I don't believe that there are any regular posters on this forum that will intentionally try to mislead someone else. Yes, there have been a few "forum facts" that were found to be incorrect. However, they all originated in facts. In most cases, WIS made some change that was not well publicized that led to the spread of bad info by well intentioned users.

It seems like every other thread I read lately has someone questioning the replies. As I said in one current thread, the only 2 people who know the specifics of the engine and the programming are Tarek Kamil, the founder of WIS and original HD programmer and Scott Eble, the current programmer. If you aren't satisfied with a given response then contact seble because TK no longer works for WIS. Don't take up 3 or 12 or 50+ pages arguing with someone - go to the origin.

There is an old saying that goes "If you can't stand the answer, don't ask the question." I wish certain coaches here would learn and apply this adage. I wish that instead of challenging every answer that disagrees with what they want to hear that they would be open to the possibility that they could be wrong. I also wish that a few specific users were not singled out as automatically wrong just because of the manner in which they respond. Vegaskeven was one that was singled out a lot. He was abrasive and perhaps rude at times but he almost always was correct with his point. Why can't readers see beyond the tone and focus on the message?

If I do continue to post in this forum, I am not going to "prove" myself every time and/or cite my source. I think it's time we vets turn the tide and say "No, you prove I'm wrong."

I don't expect this rant to change many users approach to posting but I feel better for saying it. Thank you for your time.

weena, i don't expect you were aiming this at me at all, but i have questioned things you've said a couple times lately... and i've suggested nobody take any source, even the game designer, as an absolute. so just in case, i just wanted to say, its nothing against you, i really respect your opinion. i just question everything. and some of those "forum facts" you referenced have been wide spread severe misunderstandings shared by many of the games's best and brightest. even sometimes shared by the game designer himself. usually, these arise from CS statements rather than experience. for that reason, i do recommend that everybody remain a bit of a skeptic - ultimately, you want to verify as much as possible through your own experimentation. and, i also see no problem with people asking if something is based on experience or a CS statement, as long as it is done respectfully. or, politely asking if a couple people could confirm something that doesn't sound right.

that said, i support your message 100% weena. and i hope you will keep posting - i find it very helpful, and i am sure there are plenty of others who would say the same!

I'm pretty sure this was aimed directly at Colonels......

could be... i just wanted to say something in support, weena is one of the most helpful posters out there, and deserves credit for it. the problem isn't just limited to colonels, either...

Are you serious?

I really do respect all of you guys, and for the most part, believe what is said. But what kind of nerve do people have to get ****** when someone asks for factual support. Talk about an ego.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

I understand wanting respect after what many of you have accomplished in this game, and there is no reason to challenge many of the answers given, but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best.

that goes along with what I posted in another post that I feel it takes at least 50 seasons before you get a good understanding of this game, the vets are here for a reason, to help you out. all the vets I know are like myself, we love competition so the better we can make the other coaches the funner it is for us. by the way this is just one of my many usernames, most of you know my by Baloochow82 or mandjtesting and now also emenator.

I want to thank all the coaches that helped me when I first started and thought I knew it all and then I found out I didn't even begin to know anything. this is a game that reading the FAQs and help will only go so far, the rest is hands on experience, coaches like weena, OR, rails, dalter, and many more have been here forever, if you ask them a question they will give you a straight answer, I will do the same thing but I don't know D-1 like those guys.

Weena I would hate to see you quit responding in the forums, what I do now is if someone has a question I see that I know something about I will site mail them it's a lot easier for me that way. maybe you can do something like that also, what you know is valuable to not share.

After my response rant, let me say that I definitely appreciate the vets who have taken the time to help me, even now after 20+ seasons. Special thanks to cheeznsweet, who has helped me the most, and to everyone who was in the MIAC - Wooden D3 (breum, marica, hoggchief), when I started. This game is what it is because of the guys who are willing to embrace the newer coaches.

Quote: Originally posted by isack24 on 12/29/2009Are you serious?I really do respect all of you guys, and for the most part, believe what is said.  But what kind of nerve do people have to get ****** when someone asks for factual support.  Talk about an ego. "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts."  - Bertrand RussellI understand wanting respect after what many of you have accomplished in this game, and there is no reason to challenge many of the answers given, but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best.

"but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best" - that is not what he said at all. this is exactly the kind of attitude he is speaking out against, exactly the same attitude i spoke out against in one of those other current threads.

in text communication, there is always ambiguity. you can virtually always take anything multiple ways. why some of the younger coaches seem intent on taking things the wrong way is beyond me. who does it help? what does it accomplish? all you do is drive away those who are willing to help you. that is not a bad quote you have there, but let me help you out with another

"don't bite the hand that feeds you"

let me try one more

"One should never do wrong in return, nor mistreat any man, no matter how one has been mistreated by him." - Plato's Socrates

I guess we should decide on one HD deity, let them post about 20 pages worth of HD information and then lock all the forums. So if zhawks was the chosen one, oldresorter, oldave, lostmyth or anyone else wouldn't be allowed to question it.

However, if it's a newbie asking for advice/help and then blindly questioning things, I could see somone getting upset.

To be totally honest, I have become a pretty decent coach without ever using the forums. I am trying to become an elite coach, so now I am using them - but I'm not too concerned with ******* people off on here.

"but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best" - that is not what he said at all. this is exactly the kind of attitude he is speaking out against, exactly the same attitude i spoke out against in one of those other current threads.

Weena says: "I am really getting tired of posting responses or reading other veteran coaches responses and then having someone ask for proof. It is really annoying and disrespectful. Are we vets so unreliable that nothing we say can be taken at face value?"

So actually, yeah, that's exactly what he said. He essentially said he doesn't like being questioned. Maybe not what he actually tried to convey, but I'm not really getting another meaning there.

EDIT: So, when you say my attitude is the one that he is "speaking out against," I'll argue that it's your misinterpretation and need to defend a guy who you like that is the real problem.

Quote: Originally posted by isack24 on 12/29/2009To be totally honest, I have become a pretty decent coach without ever using the forums.  I am trying to become an elite coach, so now I am using them - but I'm not too concerned with ******* people off on here."but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best" - that is not what he said at all. this is exactly the kind of attitude he is speaking out against, exactly the same attitude i spoke out against in one of those other current threads.Weena says: "I am really getting tired of posting responses or reading other veteran coaches responses and then having someone ask for proof. It is really annoying and disrespectful. Are we vets so unreliable that nothing we say can be taken at face value?"So actually, yeah, that's exactly what he said.  He essentially said he doesn't like being questioned.  Maybe not what he actually tried to convey, but I'm not really getting another meaning there.

i am assuming what he meant here. but let me try to make it clear for you. here is an example scenario:

coach 1: fairly straightforward question
vet 1: answer A
vet 2: answer A
coach 1: what are you talking about. that makes no sense. answer B. show me the data for answer A.
vet 3: answer A
vet 4: answer A
vet 5: answer A
coach 1: you are all crazy. you fail to grasp simple concepts. what about modifications C, D, E, F to previously proven wrong answer B?



well, please clear something up for me. how do you make a logical connection from:
weena: Are we vets so unreliable that nothing we say can be taken at face value?

to:
you: So actually, yeah, that's exactly what he said. (referencing "but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best")


he is saying, must you question everything, regardless of how many vets back it up? not that there is no case in which somebody has right to ask for proof, or ask more questions. not even close.

and, its not about you becoming a top coach. its not about you needing help or not. its about common decency.

You're talking about one super-extreme example that happened with colonels. Yeah, I agree, that whole things was annoying.

But he's clearly talking about himself orother coaches posting something, and this response coming up multiple times.

Look, your interpretation might be correct, I have no idea, but it isn't even close to what he actually said.

How do I make that logical connection? Well you out an important part of his post.

"I am really getting tired of posting responses or reading other veteran coaches responses and then having someone ask for proof."

That means that he doesn't like having someone ask for proof when he posts a response. In fact, it pretty says that verbatim. Thus, I don't think my response of "but to say that people have no right to ask for proof is insane, at best" is logically disconnected at all.

Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 12/29/2009
and, its not about you becoming a top coach. its not about you needing help or not. its about common decency

Well that was in response to your "don't bite the hand that feeds you" quote, which actually did make it about me needing help.

But I agree, it's about common decency. That goes both ways. I have noticed a condescension among a couple of top-teir coaches that doesn't jive with "common decency." That said, most people are incredibly pleasant, and that goes for both new coaches and vets.

isack, i think it goes back to what i said about things being able to be taken multiple ways. only weena can say what he really meant. i am taking it on faith that he is making a reasonable request, not the one you suggested was insane (i agree, it would be a ridiculous request - that is why i am making the fairly safe assumption that is not what he meant).

anyway, i agree with you on the last part. it definitely goes both ways. i think any coach who has been around long enough should realize we all have huge gaps in our understanding of this game. and i think most do.

when i said the bit about not biting the hand that feeds you, i wasn't trying to say anything about you needing help or not. i just don't think it is the right thing to do. sorry, that was misleading, i see where you were coming from on the help thing now. that's really not what i was getting at.

by the way, what qualifies as proof in this context?

is it enough to say that is what I have seen happen a number of times?

or when I have tried it - whatever it is - each way it seems to have worked out when I did X and not when I did Y

for many questions there is no real proof