guard low post poll Topic

gillispie
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it seems that guard low post is working as low post is defined. it matters in the paint, but is meaningless in perimeter shots, just like for any other player. theoretically, one would hope having the ability to go both ways would give a guard better looks on the perimeter or better looks in the paint, depending on how he was being guarded. that said, i was curious how people felt on a couple issues - for the purposes of discussion, lets say this is at d1. but if anyone wants to answer separately for d2, go right ahead!

1) Overall, a guard's ability to take it to the hole (like john wall or derrick rose, among other) appears:
a) non existent
b) its there, but not particularly useful
c) moderately useful
d) pretty useful
e) very useful - its a game changer!

2) Overall, a guard's ability to be an effective scorer with 1 low post has:
a) increased slightly
b) stayed the same
c) decreased slightly
d) decreased significantly

3) Overall, do you see that a guard is getting better perimeter looks because of his lp threat, and visa versa?
a) Yes! 
b) somewhat significant
c) a little bit, but not very significant
d) not at all

4) When recruiting a guard, you:
a) Completely ignore low post
b) Completely ignore low post unless it is above a certain threshold (where abouts?)
c) Completely ignore low post unless the guard has poor perimeter shooting
d) Value low post slightly
e) Value low post significantly
f) Love low post - its a game changer!
edit - added g) Value low post somehow based on the guard's free throw shooting - care to explain?

5) In trying to assess the mechanic that allows a player to use both his low post and perimeter skills, whether a guard, small forward, or big man, you:
a) Believe they are completely unrelated - a player is either going to use his low post skill OR perimeter skill, and never has "an option" which way to go
b) Believe they are related option style - a player will essentially find himself in a situation where he can use his low post skill or perimeter skill, and based on which is likely to turn out better (for example, it could depend on who would defend him in which shot, or maybe how well his defender would defend each kind of shot).
c) Believe they are related in a compounding style - the threat of one shot gives a player better opportunities at the other kind of shot

10/17/2010 12:26 PM
coach_billyg
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i wasn't really sure how to put it in a question, but i was also curious how people felt about low post's effect on the shots your guard is taking. seems to me (possibly like the old engine), higher low post results in fewer 3 point shots. really i would hope it would be the long 2 jumper that was converted to shots in the paint, not 3s. but it doesn't really seem that way to me. thoughts?
10/17/2010 12:42 PM
a_in_the_b
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1) Overall, a guard's ability to take it to the hole (like john wall or derrick rose, among other) appears:
a) non existent
b) its there, but not particularly useful
c) moderately useful
d) pretty useful
e) very useful - its a game changer!

2) Overall, a guard's ability to be an effective scorer with 1 low post has:
a) increased slightly
b) stayed the same
c) decreased slightly
d) decreased significantly

3) Overall, do you see that a guard is getting better perimeter looks because of his lp threat, and visa versa?
a) Yes! 
b) somewhat significant
c) a little bit, but not very significant
d) not at all

4) When recruiting a guard, you:
a) Completely ignore low post
b) Completely ignore low post unless it is above a certain threshold (where abouts?)
c) Completely ignore low post unless the guard has poor perimeter shooting
d) Value low post slightly
e) Value low post significantly
f) Love low post - its a game changer!
edit - added g) Value low post somehow based on the guard's free throw shooting - care to explain?

5) In trying to assess the mechanic that allows a player to use both his low post and perimeter skills, whether a guard, small forward, or big man, you:
a) Believe they are completely unrelated - a player is either going to use his low post skill OR perimeter skill, and never has "an option" which way to go
b) Believe they are related option style - a player will essentially find himself in a situation where he can use his low post skill or perimeter skill, and based on which is likely to turn out better (for example, it could depend on who would defend him in which shot, or maybe how well his defender would defend each kind of shot).
c) Believe they are related in a compounding style - the threat of one shot gives a player better opportunities at the other kind of shot

Granted the universe of guards hasn't been huge to choose from, but all of my most effective guards have had both LP and PER, and those seem to end up with much higher FG% than the ones than have just perimeter alone.  Granted, this is for me and consequently a limited sample,
 

10/17/2010 3:18 PM
hughesjr
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Posted by coach_billyg on 10/17/2010 12:42:00 PM (view original):
i wasn't really sure how to put it in a question, but i was also curious how people felt about low post's effect on the shots your guard is taking. seems to me (possibly like the old engine), higher low post results in fewer 3 point shots. really i would hope it would be the long 2 jumper that was converted to shots in the paint, not 3s. but it doesn't really seem that way to me. thoughts?
I believe that the % of 3 pointers taken is tied to a ratio of PE/LP ... where a higher PE would mean more 3 pointers.  You can use the "3pt. Plus/Minus settings" to adjust that (obviously), but the 0 setting (go with the flow of the game) would have a guy with 60 PE / 1 LP take more 3 pointers than a guy with 30 PE / 20 LP with the same 3pt setting.
10/17/2010 6:45 PM
oldresorter
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gil - I think the effect is substantial, the player I am posting here is pretty much the traditional 'star' guard we have had for years, with a LP game added, he played sf his frosh year, sg his soph, and pg his juniot year, for his career, he is 185 for 289 (64%) on 2pt shots and 88 for 231 on 3 pt shots.   Hence I would say that LP is very significant. 

I promised him if he comes back next season I will let him play PF, just to keep life interesting for him.

http://whatifsports.com/hd/PlayerProfile/Ratings.aspx?tid=11846&pid=1618188

Yr. GP GS MIN FG% FG3% FT% OREB REB AST TO STL BLK PF PTS
50 27 27 20.9 .515 .370 .811 1.3 3.4 2.4 1.7 1.0 0.0 0.9 12.9
49 32 0 17.0 .544 .403 .762 0.9 2.7 1.8 1.1 0.8 0.1 0.9 7.9
48 32 32 17.8 .511 .371 .730 0.9 2.6 1.7 0.6 0.6 0.2 1.3 5.8
Averages       .523 .381 .779 1.0 2.9 1.9 1.1 0.8 0.1 1.0 8.6


Yr. GP GS MIN FGM FGA FG3M FG3A FTM FTA OFF REB AST TO STL BLK PF PTS
50 27 27 565 119 231 34 92 77 95 36 93 65 45 28 0 24 349
49 32 0 545 87 160 31 77 48 63 28 86 56 36 24 4 30 253
48 32 32 570 67 131 23 62 27 37 30 82 55 19 20 7 41 184
Totals 91 59 1680 273 522 88 231 152 195 94 261 176 100 72 11 95 786

10/17/2010 7:38 PM
bdixon
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My PG (True SG) has a 99 perimeter game and a 44 post game. He is also a 73 athlete with 91 speed. FYI...I believe a high post game is almost useless without the athleticism to go with it.

1) Overall, a guard's ability to take it to the hole (like john wall or derrick rose, among other) appears:
a) non existent
b) its there, but not particularly useful
c) moderately useful
d) pretty useful
e) very useful - its a game changer!

2) Overall, a guard's ability to be an effective scorer with 1 low post has:
a) increased slightly
b) stayed the same
c) decreased slightly
d) decreased significantly

3) Overall, do you see that a guard is getting better perimeter looks because of his lp threat, and visa versa?
a) Yes! 
b) somewhat significant
c) a little bit, but not very significant
d) not at all

4) When recruiting a guard, you:
a) Completely ignore low post
b) Completely ignore low post unless it is above a certain threshold (where abouts?)
c) Completely ignore low post unless the guard has poor perimeter shooting
d) Value low post slightly
e) Value low post significantly
f) Love low post - its a game changer!
edit - added g) Value low post somehow based on the guard's free throw shooting - care to explain?

5) In trying to assess the mechanic that allows a player to use both his low post and perimeter skills, whether a guard, small forward, or big man, you:
a) Believe they are completely unrelated - a player is either going to use his low post skill OR perimeter skill, and never has "an option" which way to go
b) Believe they are related option style - a player will essentially find himself in a situation where he can use his low post skill or perimeter skill, and based on which is likely to turn out better (for example, it could depend on who would defend him in which shot, or maybe how well his defender would defend each kind of shot).
c) Believe they are related in a compounding style - the threat of one shot gives a player better opportunities at the other kind of shot

10/18/2010 11:42 AM
bdixon
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Posted by coach_billyg on 10/17/2010 12:42:00 PM (view original):
i wasn't really sure how to put it in a question, but i was also curious how people felt about low post's effect on the shots your guard is taking. seems to me (possibly like the old engine), higher low post results in fewer 3 point shots. really i would hope it would be the long 2 jumper that was converted to shots in the paint, not 3s. but it doesn't really seem that way to me. thoughts?
Erick Czubakowski: Low Post: 16   Per: 99
FG%: .437   90 of 126 FG attempts have been 3's


Leon Morant: Low Post: 44   Per: 99  
FG%: .470   84 of 215 FG attempts have been 3's

Note: Erick Czubakowski has been set on +1 about 25% of the games played, but even considering this fact doesn't account for anywhere this much difference in 3's Vs. 2 point shots. So to answer your question, at least in this small sample, a higher post game does seem to take away from the number of 3's attempted, but I also believe it's at a very believable point Vs. RL...
10/18/2010 11:53 AM
gillispie
Posts: 1766 (0)
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thanks for the responses guys! some interesting stuff :) i am just guessing myself, here are my responses:

1) Overall, a guard's ability to take it to the hole (like john wall or derrick rose, among other) appears:
a) non existent
b) its there, but not particularly useful
c) moderately useful
d) pretty useful
e) very useful - its a game changer!

2) Overall, a guard's ability to be an effective scorer with 1 low post has:
a) increased slightly
b) stayed the same
c) decreased slightly
d) decreased significantly

3) Overall, do you see that a guard is getting better perimeter looks because of his lp threat, and visa versa?
a) Yes! 
b) somewhat significant
c) a little bit, but not very significant
d) not at all

4) When recruiting a guard, you:
a) Completely ignore low post
b) Completely ignore low post unless it is above a certain threshold (where abouts?)
c) Completely ignore low post unless the guard has poor perimeter shooting
d) Value low post slightly
e) Value low post significantly
f) Love low post - its a game changer!
edit - added g) Value low post somehow based on the guard's free throw shooting - care to explain?

5) In trying to assess the mechanic that allows a player to use both his low post and perimeter skills, whether a guard, small forward, or big man, you:
a) Believe they are completely unrelated - a player is either going to use his low post skill OR perimeter skill, and never has "an option" which way to go
b) Believe they are related option style - a player will essentially find himself in a situation where he can use his low post skill or perimeter skill, and based on which is likely to turn out better (for example, it could depend on who would defend him in which shot, or maybe how well his defender would defend each kind of shot).
c) Believe they are related in a compounding style - the threat of one shot gives a player better opportunities at the other kind of shot

i really am somewhat torn on the issue, so i couldn't stick to one answer. i feel like if a guard has 1 lp or 30, i treat him exactly the same, and feel he can be great just on per shooting. because it seems to be an option to me, not that one skill makes the other better, it seems that a high quality perimeter shooter is wasting his time driving to the hole with 30 lp. but if he is going to be a significant low post threat, then i value it reasonably high. also, i feel like a low post ability is more useful for better ft shooters, so if a guy is like a D free throw shooter i would much prefer him to sit back and take 3s. all in all, i feel like there aren't very many of these players out there, but i do think they are a very interesting prospect. next season i am going to move my d2 guard from sf to sg, to see how it plays out there, and i am pretty excited to see how it goes - hes sitting at 69 ath, 80 spd, 74 lp, 83 per, 63 bh, B ft with a solid amount of room for improvement in lp (+12 this season) and a decent amount left in spd/per/bh. so i am hoping to learn something there.

also, conceptually, it seems to me that bh should increase the value of lp significantly - but i have no inkling one way or another if thats true, with so little experience thus far.

10/18/2010 1:19 PM
arssanguinus
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My thinking is, possibly, that the higher the ATH is the more I'll value his LP at guard. 
10/19/2010 2:31 PM
bdixon
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"the higher the ATH is the more I'll value his LP at guard."

I feel the same.
10/22/2010 12:12 AM
guard low post poll Topic
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