Another question for the vets Topic

duece_duece
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I'm struggling to decide which guy is bettter suited for a triangle, man, DIII school.  I know there is an obvious difference between the 2 but I wanted to get some opinions from some guys with a few more seasons than me. If I were to choose one of these he would be a back-up center his first year probably playing 12-15 minutes, but probably be starting his sophmore year at either PF or C.  Both have 40 WE, Thanks guys. 

1. 
Athleticism 66    High        Perimeter 2     Low
Speed 18    High   Ball Handling 7  Average
Rebounding 27    High   Passing 14     Low
Defense 64    High   Stamina 73  Average
Shot Blocking 20    High   Durability 71    High
Low-post 1    Low   FT Shooting      High

2.
Athleticism 53  Average       Perimeter 1  Average
Speed 1  Average   Ball Handling 10    Low
Rebounding 65    High   Passing 23  Average
Defense 58    High   Stamina 51    High
Shot Blocking 43    High   Durability 82  Average
Low-post 21    High   FT Shooting      High
2/3/2011 3:35 AM (edited)
dahsdebater
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I like player #2.  Neither one has any offensive value at any position, but player #1 isn't really cut out for any position until he gets faster and then he'll be an elite defensive SF that can't score.  Player #2 can be a very solid defensive big man in D3 and also an excellent rebounder.  Player number 1 shouldn't be playing ANY of those minutes at PF or C that you talked about any time soon.  27 rebounding will absolutely kill you at either of those spots.
2/3/2011 3:49 AM
cheeznsweet
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#2 and its not close.  #1 just won't ever be good at anything.  Too many holes in his game.  Zero ability to score at all, low current reb, and no hope of ever having any kind of BH or Pass which makes him a huge liability.

At least #2 is able to rebound and block some shots.  At some point in the future he may be an ok scorer and his pass at 23 and avg potential isn't really a liability.  His stamina is low but he has high potential and you don't need a ton of minutes today.
2/3/2011 6:49 AM
trobone
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#2... start him at center (when he's redy) and then as he gets faster to PF
2/3/2011 9:13 AM
reinsel
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#2....could be a decent center.  Slow as hell, but if some of those high potentials are super hi, you might have something.
2/3/2011 9:41 AM
fatchance
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I am on the other side of the aisle, give me player #1. His ath and speed (they very strong) will be more valuable than player #2's reb advantage. While #1 may never be a good score he will provide some tip ins, steals and find an okay share of boards against most D3 teams.
2/3/2011 9:52 AM
HalfAstros
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#2 and it's not close.

I wouldn't touch #1, he can't rebound, score, handle the ball or pass, and DE is overrated, IMO.
2/3/2011 10:09 AM
ethan66
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Posted by HalfAstros on 2/3/2011 10:09:00 AM (view original):
#2 and it's not close.

I wouldn't touch #1, he can't rebound, score, handle the ball or pass, and DE is overrated, IMO.
Can you explain why you think DE is overrated, please?

I'm a sponge, soaking up everything here. :)

EDIT: I just read your post in another thread where you said "I pretty much ignore DE at D3, but that's always been my style."  Does that mean you only think DE is overrated at D3?



2/3/2011 11:06 AM (edited)
HalfAstros
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Many people equate the DE rating with defense, and it's not the same thing.

Overall defensive ability is a combination of ATH, SPD, DE, BLK, and IQ (plus RB and ST to a lesser degree).  The relative importance of those ratings change depending on the defensive set you play (SPD is more important in press than zone, for example).

If a big guy has a good DE rating, but is low in ATH, SPD, and BLK, he won't be a good defender.  
On the flip side, if a guy has great ATH, SPD, and BLK, he can be a great defender even with below-average DE.

That's why in D3, I think you can be very successful without good DE ratings.  I've had some great defensive teams in D3 with an average DE rating around 20.
I had a center with a DE rating of 15 (but good ATH, SPD, and BLK) win defensive player of the year (he had a ton of blocks, RB, and steals).

In general, I do think DE is more important at the higher levels, but mostly because you start maxing out the other core ratings.  
I also think DE is more important for guards than for big guys. 

P.S.  On a related note, BLK is one of the most underrated ratings, IMO.
2/3/2011 11:31 AM
ethan66
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Thanks, HalfAstros, I understand now.  I also found this posted in that other thread, which is a helpful guide:

Net DEF = (ATH+SPD+2*DEF)/4

... which underlines what you're saying.  DEF is important, but more so in combination with ATH and SPD.



2/3/2011 11:47 AM
jeffdrayer
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"I had a center with a DE rating of 15 (but good ATH, SPD, and BLK) win defensive player of the year (he had a ton of blocks, RB, and steals)."

Only thing is, Defensive Player of the Year is based on stats (like blocks and steals).  For all we know, every shot taken at that guy that didn't result in a block or steal, went in the basket.  Now, obviously that's not the case, and I agree with everything else HalfAstros is saying, but just because other factors go into defense doesn't mean the DEF rating is unimportant.  I think it's easier to *look like* a good defensive player with high ath/blk because blocked shots are an individual statistic, whereas shooting percentage against is not.  

I'm too lazy to look it up, but DEF is defined somewhere as a player's willingness to play defense.  Think of DEF and those other things as separate factors leading toward the same thing -- the best defensive players will have both the ability and the willingness to play defense.  Ignoring either will be at your own risk.

Also, I don't think REB has anything to do with defense.
2/3/2011 12:08 PM
_hannibal_
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Jeff, I think people consider REB to be important to defense because if you don't get the board after the stop, you didn't really get the stop.
2/3/2011 1:34 PM
zbrent716
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#1 might be a worthwhile defensive stopper at SF by the time he's a senior, depending on if the speed is high-high. He should never see a minute at the 4/5 (until then).

#2 fits the need you have now and has a chance of making an all-conference team before he graduates. He's the one I'd go with based on your criteria.
2/3/2011 1:54 PM (edited)
cheeznsweet
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Posted by jeffdrayer on 2/3/2011 12:08:00 PM (view original):
"I had a center with a DE rating of 15 (but good ATH, SPD, and BLK) win defensive player of the year (he had a ton of blocks, RB, and steals)."

Only thing is, Defensive Player of the Year is based on stats (like blocks and steals).  For all we know, every shot taken at that guy that didn't result in a block or steal, went in the basket.  Now, obviously that's not the case, and I agree with everything else HalfAstros is saying, but just because other factors go into defense doesn't mean the DEF rating is unimportant.  I think it's easier to *look like* a good defensive player with high ath/blk because blocked shots are an individual statistic, whereas shooting percentage against is not.  

I'm too lazy to look it up, but DEF is defined somewhere as a player's willingness to play defense.  Think of DEF and those other things as separate factors leading toward the same thing -- the best defensive players will have both the ability and the willingness to play defense.  Ignoring either will be at your own risk.

Also, I don't think REB has anything to do with defense.

DEF is definitely important but I'd much rather have a 95 ATH, 75 DEF guy than a 75 ATH, 95 DEF guy.

2/3/2011 1:51 PM
HalfAstros
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Posted by jeffdrayer on 2/3/2011 12:08:00 PM (view original):
"I had a center with a DE rating of 15 (but good ATH, SPD, and BLK) win defensive player of the year (he had a ton of blocks, RB, and steals)."

Only thing is, Defensive Player of the Year is based on stats (like blocks and steals).  For all we know, every shot taken at that guy that didn't result in a block or steal, went in the basket.  Now, obviously that's not the case, and I agree with everything else HalfAstros is saying, but just because other factors go into defense doesn't mean the DEF rating is unimportant.  I think it's easier to *look like* a good defensive player with high ath/blk because blocked shots are an individual statistic, whereas shooting percentage against is not.  

I'm too lazy to look it up, but DEF is defined somewhere as a player's willingness to play defense.  Think of DEF and those other things as separate factors leading toward the same thing -- the best defensive players will have both the ability and the willingness to play defense.  Ignoring either will be at your own risk.

Also, I don't think REB has anything to do with defense.
I agree with you overall.  Obviously the best defensive players will have high ATH, SPD, DE, BLK, and IQ.  

However, at D3, you often need to make compromises - with only ~450 points overall, you aren't going to find many guys that are good in every category.
My strategy has often been to sacrifice DE in return for higher ratings in other categories, and perhaps surprisingly, I've had good defensive teams even with below-average DE ratings.     

As to your BLK point, remember that BLK effects both blocks and "altered shots," so it has a direct effect on FG%, not just blocks.

As for REB, it has a lot to do with overall defense because of defensive rebounds.  If you give up a ton of offensive rebounds, you aren't going to be a good defensive team. (See Game 7 of last year's NBA finals.)
2/3/2011 2:17 PM
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