I've heard a lot of stories from you guys about how cuthroat D1 is.  Apparently it's so vicious that some D1 coaches are even resorting to poaching mediocre D2 recruits.  (Not mine, but several that I know of).

I think if I coached in D1 and had to take a 500-rated player away from a D2 school to sustain my mid-level B prestige D1 team, I'd hang my head in shame.  Or, here's an idea, figure out what I'm doing wrong?

Maybe I'm all wet here.  Maybe things really are that tough in D1?  

It is tough if you are not in a BCS conference.

Sometimes the 500 rated D2 players have really really good potential.   Then it makes sense for the D1 school to grab them.  I have had D2 players that would be just fine in a low D1 environment.

Posted by reinsel on 11/28/2011 11:49:00 PM (view original):
Sometimes the 500 rated D2 players have really really good potential.   Then it makes sense for the D1 school to grab them.  I have had D2 players that would be just fine in a low D1 environment.

Does it make sense if that 500-rated player was already considering a D2 school? 

I realize that non-BCS schools are the marginalized whipping boys of D1.  It only makes sense that they pass along their frustration to schools that have 1/3 their budget.

Just saying the player's overall rating doesn't really say anything about the player. On top of that a 500ish rated player could easily get into the 700s and pretty much every D1 team has low 700 rated players on them, many have upperclassmen that aren't even in the 700s.

First question- what class?  If it's a senior, you didn't stand a chance anyway.  From experience, the Seniors available to non-BCS DI schools are almost always considering DII guys after day 1.  Heck, sometimes they are considering DIII.

Second question- define poaching.  I am of the school of thought that all is fair in love and war.  Some people feel they are entitled to a player after X cycles.  Where you sit on this will determine your outlook on this whole issue.

Third question- (and this may be a stupid one)- are the same people being 'picked' on?  You can't dismiss aliases or previous grudges being involved.

I had a coach post here VERY upset that I took a Senior that was considering him with a DI program, in my first season with that program.  That senior STARTED half the games for my DI school, and the other coach had him considering a DIII school (btw, I had that school up to B- in four seasons, so I would say there was some method to that madness).  Since the recent recruit changes, the gap between low level DI and high level DII is nearly gone.  Heck, I'm recruiting guys with a B- DI school that a year or so ago I wouldn't have touched with my DII teams.

Compare a top DII team with an AI Summit league team.  You'll see that those players the DII program is snatching are going to be the top end of what those low DI schools need/can get.

And please don't take this personal- we're not all super coaches, and some of us will never have an A+ DI prestige team.  I for one have come to accept that I may never win a national championship at any level.  So unless you want to come, teach us all how it's done, write the book on how to win at low DI (and post it), I don't know if you can really claim that what any coach is doing is worth "hanging their head in shame."  And I'm not talking about jumping to the Mtn. West, low BCS type teams, I mean jump into the D level teams in D level conferences, and live that life.

Asher, I'm a D2 coach with no aspirations to ever coach D1.  And I've only started to figure things out in HD the past 2 or 3 seasons.  I haven't had any players "poached" from me by D1 schools and in general agree that all is fair in recruiting -- to a point.   I posted this as a tongue-in-cheek complaint about how schools that are getting $15,000 per scholarship are pushing aside schools with only $5k per recruit after those D2 schools have probably already shot their bolt.

I saw two instances during the current Smith recruiting cycle where D1 schools came in and tried to bump D2 schools off a kid.  One was a JUCO - and only an above-average JUCO at that.  I had been considered for him along with 2 other D2 schools, but I pulled out when I realized I wasn't going to get him without spending all my cash.  In waltzes a D prestige D1 school who either only wanted the kid for insurance or didn't know what they were doing.  The kid is still not signed as of tonight and the D1 school pulled off for whatever reason. 

The weird thing is, there was a better JUCO transfer not 100 miles from that kid, with about 30-40 higher rating and D1 schools aren't even looking at him?

In the other case, the D1 coach knows what they're doing.  They have a B prestige though they're not BCS.  Maybe they thought the kid could end up 700+ by the time he's a senior, I don't know - I'm hoping a couple of guys in my own current D2 class hit the 700 mark.  For me, those are the guys that get me deep in the tournament.  For a D1 school, they're mostly bench fodder.

It's not so much competition for recruits at issue.  It's why the richer D1 schools think it's cool to knock poorer D2 programs aside just to get at bench players.

Good point about aliases and grudges.  I hate to think that stuff goes on in HD but we know it does.  It's juvenile but some people are juvenile.

700 is no bench fodder for a nonbcs team in D1. I would love to be able to recruit a player for my D1 team and know he will grow into 750+ by his SR year. I went to the NT last year with only 4 guys over 700. 

I've taken players away from DII schools on a couple of occasions. Didn't even think twice about it. Those players were backup options for sure, but I wouldn't recruit someone I didn't think could help me.

No different than teams like Syracuse taking away guys that were considering my D+ Fairfield team. Just how the game goes sometimes. At DIII I lost guys to DII, at DII I lost guys to better DII and DI programs, and at DI i lose guys to the big name schools.

the usual pattern is a chain reaction - BCS school loses out on a recruit, therefore drops to backup plan which means that a midmajor wont get desired target, so they drop to their backup who was himself the aspiration of a low DI school and that low DI school then goes for a player that a DII school wishes it could get - and would get if the chain reaction had not happened.......its the circle of life

If I'm a D1 team trying to compete with the big boys and I see a recruit that I think can help me win that I can grab on the cheap I don't see any reason why I'd give half a rat's *** whether or not some human-coached D2 team had already "shot their bolt" at him.  That's their problem, not mine.  I'm not going to sacrifice my own team's success out of some kind of concern or consideration for somebody else's team.  I'm in it for myself.  Expecting anything else is ridiculous.

Posted by ethan66 on 11/29/2011 12:35:00 AM (view original):
Asher, I'm a D2 coach with no aspirations to ever coach D1.  And I've only started to figure things out in HD the past 2 or 3 seasons.  I haven't had any players "poached" from me by D1 schools and in general agree that all is fair in recruiting -- to a point.   I posted this as a tongue-in-cheek complaint about how schools that are getting $15,000 per scholarship are pushing aside schools with only $5k per recruit after those D2 schools have probably already shot their bolt.

I saw two instances during the current Smith recruiting cycle where D1 schools came in and tried to bump D2 schools off a kid.  One was a JUCO - and only an above-average JUCO at that.  I had been considered for him along with 2 other D2 schools, but I pulled out when I realized I wasn't going to get him without spending all my cash.  In waltzes a D prestige D1 school who either only wanted the kid for insurance or didn't know what they were doing.  The kid is still not signed as of tonight and the D1 school pulled off for whatever reason. 

The weird thing is, there was a better JUCO transfer not 100 miles from that kid, with about 30-40 higher rating and D1 schools aren't even looking at him?

In the other case, the D1 coach knows what they're doing.  They have a B prestige though they're not BCS.  Maybe they thought the kid could end up 700+ by the time he's a senior, I don't know - I'm hoping a couple of guys in my own current D2 class hit the 700 mark.  For me, those are the guys that get me deep in the tournament.  For a D1 school, they're mostly bench fodder.

It's not so much competition for recruits at issue.  It's why the richer D1 schools think it's cool to knock poorer D2 programs aside just to get at bench players.

Good point about aliases and grudges.  I hate to think that stuff goes on in HD but we know it does.  It's juvenile but some people are juvenile.

I see your points, but I think you are still underestimating how 'good' 700 is or how bad the DI lower pool is.  700 would be #1, #1, and #5 on my DI teams in overall rating.  Granted, two of the teams I recently took over, but a two time NT team, that's a B- would have 700 as my 5th overall player (disregarding cores).  The Freshmen overall I recruited for my Denver team were 574, 561 and 528- and that's after I worked up to B- to get players that 'high' to talk to me.  I hate battles I can't win, so basically those were the top players within 700 miles that weren't considering a higher prestige team (or at least was a serious target for those teams).  One of those players appeared to be on Ohio State's scout list on day 1 as well.

The question I would ask (and of course don't know the anwser) is what is the potential difference between juco A and juco B, coupled with offense and defense.

I try to stay away from recruiting battles. And I don't think I've ever "taken" a recruit who was considering a D2 school. However, I've often taking over non-BCS D- schools and it's not unusual at all to seek a really crappy player who has a high WE and tremendous upside. If I ever spotted a kid like that and he was already considering a D2 school then, in my mind, the D2 school basically doesn't even exist. I'd probably go through the routine of checking the D2 school out but really just do it out of routine and highly highly doubt it would affect my decision in the slightest. 

Which kinda sucks for the D2 schools I coach and hope it doesn't happen to them.

I took an unranked 529 rated recruit a couple seasons back. The D2 coach wasn't too happy, but he ended up being rated over 800 and being my first ever drafted player. Sometimes you gotta dig deep regardless of whether you must knock a D2 guy off.

If you don't like D1 schools taking your players in D2, don't recruit players good enough to play in D1.  If you don't like the sound of that, then it's just the risk we take for trying to recruit really good players.