tempo, offenses, and realism Topic

I've started to really understand how this sim works and the point i keep coming to that annoys me is about game speed. It seems that if you run slowdown your players are physically moving slowly and in turn, taking away speed advantage (primarily against FCP). The tempo of your offense relies primarily on the offense you run. In all basketball offenses you can choose to chuck up shots, or work for the easy ones until you have to shoot. Some offenses, like the flex, take a long time to get through. There's a ton of passing, screens, and dribbling without penetration going on during the running of the set. Yet somehow, an uptempo flex will outshoot a normal fast break. A shoot often flex should not be getting quicker shots than a regular speed fast break. Just think about the offenses. FB: rebound, outlet pass, run, look to penetrate or work a man advantage. Flex: rebound, hold the ball, safely get it to the pg, get over half, set up, start running the offense. Even if the PG decides to just get a screen and shoot, that should still take more time than the FB driving to the other end. 


In my perfect world, i would have a tempo setting that worked hand in hand with different offenses. FB is an uptempo because  the players run out of options after only a handful of passes and the defense sets up. Triangle is normal speed and maybe on the uptempo side since you are looking to isolate with ur best players and take advantage quickly of mismatches. Motion is normal to slow since it has a lot to do with ball movement but still has penetrating screens and cuts. Flex as said above is slow. It is a repetitive offense with slight wrinkles thrown in to beat defenders AFTER the play loops a few times. 

I just went through a game i played running uptempo flex vs a slowdown FB. The flex took a shot on average  a little over 12 seconds after made baskets and rebounds. The FB team, took a shot after nearly 22 seconds on rebounds and made baskets. So basically, the flex team ran a fast break offense and the fast break team ran probably a motion once they didn't shoot after there rebounds. It just doesn't make any logical basketball sense to me. 

What i want to see is you pick an offense. Let's go with flex. Then you can pick one of the three speeds. An uptempo flex will try and shoot more often. That means after two or three passes, pass down low to a good big man for a post move or the the better guards will curl catch and shoot off there first screen. The slowdown will only take WIDE OPEN jumpers and free lay ups until 10ish seconds are left on the clock. Then it becomes more of a look for a decent shot now type situation. So basically, the flex even on uptempo should still take 18 seconds minimum every time (7-8 to cross half because the flex has no run up the court options).

The Fastbreak will take pretty much under 10 seconds to shoot on a uptempo. It's a running offense at full speed. and even if you go slowly, 18 seconds would be the max since you are running up the court and immediately guys with out the ball are moving and screening and cutting for the basket. 

just my long winded thoughts about tempo. I know this is a big change but i would like something like this. It would definitely allow coaches to recruit to fit schemes much more efficiently

 
6/22/2012 8:43 PM
well that's a lot of views. but no input. womp :(
6/23/2012 2:16 AM
The way tempo is currently set up only relates to how frequent a shot attempt is taken. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how fast or slow your players move up and down the court. A fast tempo means shoot quickly, slowdown tempo means hold the ball for as long as possible. There is no relationship between tempo and type of offense other than you cannot run slowdown FB. If you click slowdown tempo for a FB offense, the engine discounts it and runs normal tempo.

There is no doubt that there would be a major benefit to changing the offenses currently available and linking them to tempo makes perfect sense to me. Your suggestion is one of the best I've seen with one exception - FB should be a situational option only. FB is not a full game offense (neither is Press defense either). I would like to see an option where a coach could play FB when down by X points.
6/23/2012 3:25 AM
I thought that tempo didn't affect speed. But then i kept reading here how slowdown keeps ur starters in longer. The only way that makes sense to me is if they are not getting as tired. Maybe everyone is saying that percentage of possessions wise they are playing more. Some how i doubt everyone is that much on the same page. So i changed what my definition of the tempo system did. I guess i'll personally look into it instead of relying on others.
6/23/2012 12:02 PM

I think the way it is set up is fine other than like Weena stated the FB is not an offensive set and the press shouldn't be a D set either you should have to choose man or zone after crossing half court. But back on the subject of tempo to me doc it seems that you're saying at an uptempo they should be running at full speed at all time and at normal jogging around and slow pace just walking. Look at it that your players are going through the offense at the same speed no matter what the tempo is but in a slowdown they are looking for the best shot possible and aren't going to settle for less, normal they would be willing to take the first good shot that presents its self and in uptempo they will take the first open shot that's there. Just because you are in uptempo you shouldn't be running mad and out of control and in a slowdown you shouldn't hold it for 30 secs. no matter what.  The reason players won't get as tired playing a slow down is simple slow down will limit possesions thus limiting how many times they have to plat D which takes more enery.

6/23/2012 1:39 PM
1 item, you cannot run Fastbreak slowdown.  If you try, it comes out as regular.
6/23/2012 1:44 PM
doc, you original observation/assertion, "It seems that if you run slowdown your players are physically moving slowly and in turn, taking away speed advantage (primarily against FCP)", is not correct.

Slowdown means the team milks the clock. Uptempo means they shoot early in the clock. It doesn't inherently favor or penalize fast or slow players while doing so (whether we think it should is another story). More possessions = more fatigue.

I agree this isn't perfect, but you just need to recalibrate your thought process a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.

Feel free to sitemail me with any thoughts/questions.
6/23/2012 3:21 PM
Posted by girt25 on 6/23/2012 3:21:00 PM (view original):
doc, you original observation/assertion, "It seems that if you run slowdown your players are physically moving slowly and in turn, taking away speed advantage (primarily against FCP)", is not correct.

Slowdown means the team milks the clock. Uptempo means they shoot early in the clock. It doesn't inherently favor or penalize fast or slow players while doing so (whether we think it should is another story). More possessions = more fatigue.

I agree this isn't perfect, but you just need to recalibrate your thought process a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.

Feel free to sitemail me with any thoughts/questions.
while tempo may not inherently favor or penalize fast or slow players (i don't agree with you, but am not 100% sure), i think the way you describe tempo is a drastic oversimplification. this has been demonstrated in the past by real data, but regardless of the data, im 99.9% sure there is more going on to tempo than simply # of possessions.
6/23/2012 6:12 PM
I'm positive that they do not inherently favor or penalize fast or slow players. I've been through this ad nauseum with two different regimes.

As far as the data re:  effectiveness, that's a different topic.
6/23/2012 10:48 PM
Posted by girt25 on 6/23/2012 10:48:00 PM (view original):
I'm positive that they do not inherently favor or penalize fast or slow players. I've been through this ad nauseum with two different regimes.

As far as the data re:  effectiveness, that's a different topic.
you are saying that running uptempo with 50spd average and 70 average, there is no inherent advantage or disadvantage?

i suppose our disagreement may come to the use of the work "inherent". i could concede there is no explicit advantage, but i do think there are indirect advantages that are inherent in uptempo.

i point to fg% as the basis of my argument. the long standing CS claims on tempo (which are historically misleading, so im not sure your going through this with two regimes means a lot, sadly) is that fg% isn't affected. that has been proven false, or as close as you get to proof in this game. i believe that in truth, ON AVERAGE, in CS simulation, their fg% was not affected, and that explains their misleading comments. this doesn't really mean anything though, if you are concerned about play between top 10 teams and WIS is looking at the whole body. 

in short, the reason fg% is unaffected on average is because of a balance between two opposing factors. 1, uptempo will lead to more high % shots, fast break opportunities and the like. 2, uptempo will lead to more low % shots, because in the half court, you are clearly penalized for rushing. so on average, these may balance - you get a couple more fast break shots, which may take a 50% shot to 90%, but you get a whole bunch of 50% shots knocked to 45% in the half court (just using the numbers to illustrate the point). however, against a good defense - the fast break opportunities diminish, and the impact on your shooting is increased. and that is where my several year old advice of, never run uptempo against great defense was born.

i would argue that your fast break opportunities are more likely to increase with higher speed. and thus, uptempo inherently (not explicitly, but implicitly) favors teams with higher speed. i suppose you could argue that this speed advantage is inherent in fast break opportunities, not uptempo, but as the fb opportunities are a key part of uptempo, i think its fair to say the speed advantage is inherent in both.

moreover, the lower the quality of your offense, the lower quality of defense it takes to crush uptempo, turning it into a very negative proposition (which it is, generally speaking, at the high levels of play. i would argue teams cut their chance fully in half, and at least a third, when they ran uptempo into my best defensive teams - and i have quite a few data points to base that on). because speed is such a huge factor in guard offense, which dominates the game, speed should be a major factor in your decision to use uptempo or not (and generally, you should not).

so im not sure if its just choice of words, but my point is simple, speed is a major factor in the decision to use uptempo or not. and even though you should rarely, if ever, run uptempo, its more so the case that you should avoid uptempo with lower speed.

to the OP, no surprise you find your team struggling with uptempo. in my prime, tempo is one of the things i spent the most time studying, if not the most, and my conclusion is simply that it has no place in high end play in this day and age. in another day, when d2 and d3 teams could sign players ridiculously higher up, when most coaches didn't know such things were possible, the gap between the #1 and #10 team was dramatically higher than it is today - some of rails's west chester PA teams were probably 98% favorites over #2. in THAT day and age, uptempo was viable in top 10 play. today, not so much. even the teams i fielded who i would bet heavily were well over 50% favorites to win the NT, they weren't enough better than the competition to merit uptempo. simply, most of my advantage came from team planning and game planning, but the talent gaps were dwarfed by those on rails's west chester PA team, in the era of higher pulldown potential and few coaches knowing the trick.

until seble revamps tempo, i still strongly maintain, no more than 1 in 100 and more likely far fewer high end teams should play uptempo by default. i do believe that in the new engine, uptempo became more viable CONDITIONALLY, and thus, slightly more viable in general, but really outside of that 1 condition, its terrible at high end play. and still very suspect. for many many seasons, during the NT, i would just pray to see my opponent run tempo into my defense, and soon as i pulled up the PBP and saw "uptempo", i breathed a sigh of relief. there is simply nothing else, within reason, that comes close to wreaking as much havoc on high end teams. these teams typically run uptempo all season, only playing a few top 25 teams - when you are like 98+ percent to win, it really is a wash, uptempo or not - or else, nobody can really detect going from 98% to 97 nor 99%. and the coaches see bigger win margins against lower teams, and think, this is great! and its almost impossible to draw a conclusion if you have only 3 real opponents all season, about how to play against tough competition. then come NT time, if you are a top team, you likely have to beat a few others to win it all, and uptempo is just going to wreck your chances, utterly. i never play uptempo myself, although i concede its probably sub optimal. really against vastly inferior teams, its probably the way to go, but i scarcely care to optimize my play against the #150 team if i am lucky enough to be #1.
6/24/2012 1:32 PM (edited)

I'm really struggling right now with tempo because it seems there is a lot of different views out there.

I'm a new coach so bare with me.

I played a very good FB/FCP team. I decided to go uptempo because I knew they would too and put all my guys on fairly fresh. Stuck around for a half then got blown out.

http://whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=8350540


Thinking now I should've gone slowdown.



Next game play another decent team that ran uptempo/Fcp. I was going to go uptempo again but deciced to play normal and lost by 3. You could say bad free-throw shooting cost me but I'm thinking if I would've ran uptempo maybe a couple of those guys with 4 fouls would've fouled out.

http://whatifsports.com/hd/GameResults/BoxScore.aspx?gid=8352824


Guess it's just trial and error. Gotta experiment as a new coach and find out what works.
6/24/2012 3:52 PM
tempo, offenses, and realism Topic

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