CY Young = Quantity over Quality? Topic

mchalesarmy
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While I certainly understand the value of a 250 ip SP, I detest the consideration for the CY award. 

Player 1) is 85/35 and logs 280 every season.
Player 2) is 67/25 and is lucky to hit 200 ever. 

It seems like Player 2 can NEVER win the CY just simply because his can't amass enough innings. 

You know the guys that are studs year in and year out and routinely hit 250+. They will ALWAYS get the nod over a 180 ip guy who has a career year because everyone seems to think  "Well yeah, Player 2 was a little better in all the critical categories, but Player 1 threw 90 more innings, so I went with player 1 and it was really no contest when you consider the innings".

Doesn't that line of thinking basically eliminate 75% of the SPs in most worlds?
5/29/2014 2:22 PM (edited)
MikeT23
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Don't we vote for CY winners?
5/29/2014 1:49 PM
mchalesarmy
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 1:49:00 PM (view original):
Don't we vote for CY winners?
Yes, and it seems that a lot of owners follow this line of thinking:
"Well yeah, Player 2 was a little better in all the critical categories, but Player 1 threw 90 more innings, so I went with player 1 and it was really no contest when you consider the innings"


5/29/2014 2:20 PM
MikeT23
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OK, I thought you were complaining about the program.

Talk to the dumbass owners in your world.    I've got one in Coop that insists Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Jimmy Powell doesn't deserve his CY because he doesn't throw complete games.
5/29/2014 2:27 PM
bighead34
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i couldn't disagree with you more mchalesarmy...stamina, durability, and health are skills...when you say a guy "can't amass enough innings", you are implying that shouldn't be held against him, which is no different than saying "well yeah one guy had 40 HRs and the other only had 27, but you can't hold that against him because his power rating is lower"...additionally you found a very strange case to complain about considering the players you are referencing had essentially identical rate stats...the guy you're advocating for wasn't clearly better when he pitched (and i'd argue he was worse)...so yeah, when its close, but one guy pitches 90 more innings its pretty much a no-brainer who should win
5/29/2014 2:35 PM
dedelman
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Mchale-- I try to use a wins-above-replacement kind of approach.  In the hypothetical you describe, I add 80 innings at something like half a run to a run above league average to the low inning guy, and compare those stats to the high inning guy.  If the ERA, etc. are close, the high inning guy will win every time.  But if the 200 IP guy is a few tenths or more better in ERA, I usually end up voting for him.

5/29/2014 3:17 PM
willsauve
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/29/2014 2:27:00 PM (view original):
OK, I thought you were complaining about the program.

Talk to the dumbass owners in your world.    I've got one in Coop that insists Hardball Dynasty – Fantasy Baseball Sim Games - Player Profile: Jimmy Powell doesn't deserve his CY because he doesn't throw complete games.
Excellent pick at #3.. Doesnt get much better than that... 
5/29/2014 4:23 PM
mchalesarmy
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Posted by bighead34 on 5/29/2014 2:35:00 PM (view original):
i couldn't disagree with you more mchalesarmy...stamina, durability, and health are skills...when you say a guy "can't amass enough innings", you are implying that shouldn't be held against him, which is no different than saying "well yeah one guy had 40 HRs and the other only had 27, but you can't hold that against him because his power rating is lower"...additionally you found a very strange case to complain about considering the players you are referencing had essentially identical rate stats...the guy you're advocating for wasn't clearly better when he pitched (and i'd argue he was worse)...so yeah, when its close, but one guy pitches 90 more innings its pretty much a no-brainer who should win
I'm not really complaining so much as I hear the "XX more innings" argument all the time, and it means to me that if a SP can log only 180 he can NEVER win the CY unless he has a very freak season and just ultimately dominates the field. 

I know that Hutch had a great season and was better in a lot of categories. To me THOSE reasons are valid. However, I have seen in past seasons more deserving guys lose out because although his line was better, the other guy was close and threw a lot more innings. Again, it just seems that if you consider innings for anything other than a tie breaker you will NEVER vote for a 180 inning type, which eliminates 70% or so of the SPs in any given world.

5/30/2014 12:30 AM
joshkvt
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If there are high-quality pitchers throwing 250+ innings, a pitcher throwing 180 starts off being only 70% as valuable to his team all else being equal. That pitcher would have to be like Pedro of 1999-2000 to be more valuable. A team is better off with a guy throwing 250 innings with a 1.15 WHIP than someone throwing 180 innings of 1.1. Obviously, in playoffs and other huge games you want the better quality. But a significant part of value is quantity; the team with the 180/1.1 pitcher needs to have someone else throw those 70 innings, and that someone does not include the 2-3-4 starters who are going to throw their innings regardless. With the 250 IP guy, you might need one less replacement-level starter to eat innings. If the 180 IP guy goes 14-4 and the 5th starter goes 2-7, you're getting less value than the other going 21-8.

The 180 IP guy SHOULD only win the award if he has a freak season and dominates the field.

5/30/2014 11:55 PM
dierickx3
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Well said. Joshkvt! That's exactly right.
5/31/2014 12:22 AM
hughesjr
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I look here and I don't see many starters with less than 200 IP (who were not relief pitchers) who have ever won a Cy Young award ... why would we want to pick them in HBD?

Well there was 1984 Rick Sutcliuffe (16-1, 150 IP, 2.69 ERA) and 1981 Fernando Valenzuela (13-7, 192.1 IP, 2.48 ERA) in a strike season.  So it has happened once in the history of the MLB in a non-strike year.

5/31/2014 8:47 AM
CY Young = Quantity over Quality? Topic
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