as a very rough guide at d2 for RE, i want
C - 90+
PF-70+
SF 30+

i run FB/man

like many others, i will often sacrifice RE at SF spot to get the other attributes i need.

currently, im debating whether i can get away with 40-50ish RE at the PF spot.

when i say "get away with" I mean, have that weak spot and yet be a top8ish team

obviously athleticism ties in with this, just assume that athleticism and speed and ball skills would be very good at the PF spot, just weak RE of 40-50

thoughts?

What O/D system is this?

My 2 cents (but I only coach D3 and D1):

I think the rebounding tradeoff is really matchup dependent. If you find yourself running into and struggling against teams that run zone or HCP/Zone or teams that have guards that can't rebound unless the ball hits them in the head, then it is probably worth it. But from my experience running my scheme (2-3 zone with no true PF but board-grabbing/shot-stopping C), if you are going to give ground on the rebounding battle, you have to offset it with some combination of better speed, better D, and more efficient 3-point shooting.

I normally recruit based on my custom player roles. But I do set minimums for Reb. For me, I don't even look less than 35 for SF, 65 for PF, or 75 for C. This is for Div2. Then I order all recruits that meet these minimums by my player roles.

Specifically for rebounding, I think you can add in ATH and take away REB and get the same impact.

So 70+70 (ATH, REB) or 60+80 are similar (IMHO)

yeah, hughes that has pretty close to what i look for as minimum but i will frequently go very low at SF for the right guy. but the PF thing keeps intriguing me because i think i could get so many other skills with a 40-50 RE guy at PF. ill probably try it and see how it goes.

i feel like if anything i have usually erred on the high side of RE because i just dont recall many of my games being lost because of the boards.


FB/man

given your last comment, hughes, seems like at PF if i want to go 50ish RE, id need to get 90ish ATH. thats probably not gonna happen. anyway, thanks for the feedback fellas

Posted by oldave on 1/25/2021 2:58:00 PM (view original):
given your last comment, hughes, seems like at PF if i want to go 50ish RE, id need to get 90ish ATH. thats probably not gonna happen. anyway, thanks for the feedback fellas

That's too harsh... it's a sliding scale for me. Hard cutoffs are nearly always bad. If you are thinking about recruiting a 80 ath 60 spd 45 REB 90 de 35 sb 95 lp 50 per 30 bh 35 pa 90 sta SF you take him all day and start him at the 4.

Posted by cubcub113 on 1/25/2021 3:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by oldave on 1/25/2021 2:58:00 PM (view original):
given your last comment, hughes, seems like at PF if i want to go 50ish RE, id need to get 90ish ATH. thats probably not gonna happen. anyway, thanks for the feedback fellas

That's too harsh... it's a sliding scale for me. Hard cutoffs are nearly always bad. If you are thinking about recruiting a 80 ath 60 spd 45 REB 90 de 35 sb 95 lp 50 per 30 bh 35 pa 90 sta SF you take him all day and start him at the 4.

8.5.7

I won a D1 title giving 22 minutes at the 4 to a guy with 58 reb in the NT FWIW.


Mo/Man

I usually sacrifice REB for Ath at PF and have had success. I regularly run PF's in the 50's and 60's REB, but always have 70+ Ath.

For SF's I found that it's very hard to find an ideal SF at DII. I usually used that spot as a throwaway for a player who isn't fast enough to play guard or doesn't have the rebounding to play PF but is a good overall player.

i agree that its very hard to find true SFs at d2, and that it is a little severe to use *any* hard rebounding cutoff for SF. true guards are often some of the best SFs outside of high d1. depends on the scheme though a bit.

i tend to look at rebounding holistically, because its really a team sport, rebounding is. if you are sacrificing your PF rebounding down to 50 in a vacuum, that is probably not great. if you are doing it with a really strong 3/5 and maybe some guard rebounding, its an easier sell. also, seems like a REALLY tough sell in zone no matter what. i think a weaker reb pf is way easier to tolerate in the press, and even in m2m.

in general, i think rebounding is just really important for the 4/5, and its going to be hard to make a major offset. ath can help offset reb, but its like 3:1 ballpark, reb:ath, so even with some ath to offset the reb, its likely a reb hit. that can be ok, depending on the circumstance. however, with rebounding such a vital priority at the 4, you basically can only justify someone who is sucky at rebounding if they are flat out amazing on both offense and defense. if so, then yes, i'd consider that adequate compensation - but i also often would ask if that guy play the 3, i think its easier to take a bh/pass hit at the 3 than a reb hit at the 4, by a good margin. but if the guy is slower too, you are probably playing them at the 4.

i think a lot of folks get allured by 'look at all the speed, per, bh, pass i can get at the 4 for that measly rebounding!". that is usually a dead end IMO, but if you throw in stamina and fb/fcp, you can definitely get there! in straight press, i spent a long time trying to make the most of that extra spd and guard skills at the 4, and judged it to be impossible. well - i mean, would we be top 8 - sure. but my standard then was i wanted to be #1 by a mile, i wanted to win 9 out of 10 games over the #2 team in the country with my best teams and 8/10 with the ones a tier down. i was successful in that endeavor, but never with a 4 guard lineup. even pg-sg-sg-sf-c was too much of a reb hit, and i was running 50 reb on the majority of those guards.

it is a bit different when your team is worse, however. when you are capable of getting plenty of per scoring and bh/pass from the 1-3, the extra at the 4 is almost worthless. if you are lacking in those things from the 1-3, you can get a lot more compensation from those items at the 4. still, reb is vastly more valuable than any of those skills at the 4, under basically any circumstances. i would often take 10-15 reb over 100 per/bh/pass (total) at the 4, but again, that pre-supposes an excellently built team. for scorers i'm probably in the 20s on that reb figure. for regular coaches i could see getting into the 30s even (for scorers - which the player in question for this thread MUST be - if not - they are an automatic pass), assuming you have guard talent deficits you are compensating for. still, its basically never going to be remotely close to an even proposition.

in short - it can work - but make sure you are getting a LOT of compensation for that reb!

i swear to god.
i swear.... i was *this close* to putting

"please limit your answers to 150 words or less"

just kiddin gil!

great feedback everyone

ok now its 30 minutes later and finished reading gils post. good stuff

might just have to be a lesson learned for 2-3 years. i went smallball in a 5 man recruiting class. partly because ijust didnt like the bigs. my guess these guys still be pretty good by my standards which have fallen quite a bit lately. i feel like these guys will be top8 ish as seniors even if i end up with the RE50ish dude at PF. also i have a couple spots in the class behind then and hopefully can go big there

thanks fellas

Posted by oldave on 1/25/2021 11:52:00 PM (view original):
ok now its 30 minutes later and finished reading gils post. good stuff

might just have to be a lesson learned for 2-3 years. i went smallball in a 5 man recruiting class. partly because ijust didnt like the bigs. my guess these guys still be pretty good by my standards which have fallen quite a bit lately. i feel like these guys will be top8 ish as seniors even if i end up with the RE50ish dude at PF. also i have a couple spots in the class behind then and hopefully can go big there

thanks fellas

IMO you'll be alright as long as you prioritize rebounding in your bigs in the next class or two. in the old days, i would say - if you can't rebound, it really doesn't even matter if you can do anything else. but the game has changed to a significant degree (and worlds are emptier). its not really that rebounding is objectively worth less, its that big man offense and thus defense both matter more.

but bottom line, as a m2m team in d2 where you are gonna be down several to a handful of possessions against the top press teams just by nature of the beast, you can't really afford to be less than great at rebounding - as a team. like if you aren't pressing and you aren't also a top 10ish reb team, you really have to be incredible everywhere else to meet your stated goal - i think. that is why i said it really matters the rest of your positions, how you are handling rebounding there. if you are playing small on your sfs and at the 4 too, that is probably going to get into dubious territory - but if you can manage high end reb on your other 3 bigs, i think you'll be fine, even if they are younger.