Looking for some advice on my depth chart. My roster has a lot of issues, so hoping someone can help me maximize what I have.

Hoops Dynasty – College Basketball Sim Games - Team Profile

Thank you!

Yeah, you're really thin up front. Weimer's ineligible, so that hurts your depth in the front court. This would be my depth chart (starters in bold):

PG: Christner, Mount, Michel, Johnson
SG: Gingras, Mount, Michel, Lockhart
SF: Morehead, Lockhart, Rachel, Michel
PF: Newell, Rachel, Lockhart, Michel
C: Campbell, Rachel, Lockhart, Michel

The roster has issues, but you a least have a solid starting 5. I would play a lot of slow down with this team and try and maximize minutes for your starters. Your biggest depth concerns are at PG and the post.

Here is how I’d set my depth chart

PG
Gingras
Mount
Johnson
Christner

Gingras is a solid score first point guard. His perimeter and IQ will probably make him your leading scorer. You don't have much behind him, so it is unfortunate that his stamina rating is only 57. You really need him on the floor as much as possible. Mount and Johnson are trash defensively. I went with Mount over Johnson because at least he can score.

SG
Morehead
Christner
Johnson
Mount

This is probably your deepest position. You could start Morehead or Christner. I went with Morehead because he is a little better defensively and is a better free throw shooter (starters are usually in the game late in close games and you want good FT shooters on the floor in those situations). Christner should serve as a solid perimeter scorer off the bench.

SF
Lockhart
Newell
Johnson
Gingras

Lockhart is a solid defensive SF. I wouldn't ask him to take many shots, but his ATH, REB and DEF ratings are very solid. A lot of people will probably disagree with my decision to make Newell the back up SF, but you don't have any other SF on your roster and I'd rather have a slower player that can rebound than a guard that doesn't rebound at all, especially considering you don't have any bigs with a REB rating over 82. Newell will give you another nice scoring option off the bench.

PF
Campbell
Newell
Weimer
Rachel

Campbell is a really good player and will probably be your 2nd leading scorer. I could even see him leading scorer. I also listed Newell as the back up here. I'll cover more about this strategy in my general summary at the bottom. Your lack of depth in the front court is the biggest problem on this team.

C
Rachel
Weimer
Newell
Campbell

Rachel is a solid athlete, defender and rebounder. He can also pitch in on offense a little bit. I have Weimer as the back up and he gives you some rebounding and shot blocking, with a little offense sprinkled in.


Overall Summary
Most HD coaches are going to disagree with this, but i would play slow down and then set Lockhart, Campbell and Newell at "getting tired" for substitutions. It it not ideal, but in my opinion it is the best way to cover your lack of depth. Newell is a good player, so having has the top back up option a SF and PF, with the getting tired sub setting should net him over 20 mpg, which is good since he has a lot of ways he can help your team.

I think this team could make the PIT with the right schedule.

Posted by drichar138 on 9/11/2021 3:21:00 PM (view original):
The roster has issues, but you a least have a solid starting 5. I would play a lot of slow down with this team and try and maximize minutes for your starters. Your biggest depth concerns are at PG and the post.

Here is how I’d set my depth chart

PG
Gingras
Mount
Johnson
Christner

Gingras is a solid score first point guard. His perimeter and IQ will probably make him your leading scorer. You don't have much behind him, so it is unfortunate that his stamina rating is only 57. You really need him on the floor as much as possible. Mount and Johnson are trash defensively. I went with Mount over Johnson because at least he can score.

SG
Morehead
Christner
Johnson
Mount

This is probably your deepest position. You could start Morehead or Christner. I went with Morehead because he is a little better defensively and is a better free throw shooter (starters are usually in the game late in close games and you want good FT shooters on the floor in those situations). Christner should serve as a solid perimeter scorer off the bench.

SF
Lockhart
Newell
Johnson
Gingras

Lockhart is a solid defensive SF. I wouldn't ask him to take many shots, but his ATH, REB and DEF ratings are very solid. A lot of people will probably disagree with my decision to make Newell the back up SF, but you don't have any other SF on your roster and I'd rather have a slower player that can rebound than a guard that doesn't rebound at all, especially considering you don't have any bigs with a REB rating over 82. Newell will give you another nice scoring option off the bench.

PF
Campbell
Newell
Weimer
Rachel

Campbell is a really good player and will probably be your 2nd leading scorer. I could even see him leading scorer. I also listed Newell as the back up here. I'll cover more about this strategy in my general summary at the bottom. Your lack of depth in the front court is the biggest problem on this team.

C
Rachel
Weimer
Newell
Campbell

Rachel is a solid athlete, defender and rebounder. He can also pitch in on offense a little bit. I have Weimer as the back up and he gives you some rebounding and shot blocking, with a little offense sprinkled in.


Overall Summary
Most HD coaches are going to disagree with this, but i would play slow down and then set Lockhart, Campbell and Newell at "getting tired" for substitutions. It it not ideal, but in my opinion it is the best way to cover your lack of depth. Newell is a good player, so having has the top back up option a SF and PF, with the getting tired sub setting should net him over 20 mpg, which is good since he has a lot of ways he can help your team.

I think this team could make the PIT with the right schedule.

Oh man, I didn’t notice that Weimer is ineligible. Yea you are definitely going to need to set all your front court players at getting tired.

PG - Gingras, Christener, Johnson
SG - Michel, Christener, Mount
SF - Lockhart, Christener, Morehead
PF - Campbell, Newell, Lockhart
C - Rachel, Newell, Lockhart

Always play slowdown. Set Campbell, Newell, Michel, Christener, and Morehead to “getting tired,” leave the rest at “fairly fresh.

I’d move Michel to SF if the opponent has an excellent scorer there. He’s your lockdown defender. I’d hesitate to start him at pg, but in some situations, maybe (his distribution needs to be kept low in any case, but especially if he’s playing pg). If he’s not in your starting lineup, I think you definitely want to make sure you have him in a position to neutralize your opponents best bench perimeter scorer, so you’ll need to gameplan carefully to maximize his impact, which could be a big plus for you.

If, after a couple games, you find you’re having trouble keeping your frontcourt guys out of foul trouble, you can put Chowansky in at the last slot in the 4 and 5. He shouldn’t see more than a handful of minutes, and it might help keep your guys a little more fresh, and out of foul trouble when they get super fatigued. I know it looks distasteful to use a walkon with 5 defense, but the alternative may also be messy.

Thank you all for your feedback. I really appreciate it. Makes a lot of sense playing slowdown and setting key guys to “getting tired”.

I was going to help but looks like you have some good advice already. Yeah this roster is a tough one to sort out. Goodluck!

i don't like the getting tired suggestion personally for dealing with the front court shortness. getting tired is good - or at least a reasonable tool - when you have a relatively full rotation and want to emphasize the better players. when you have a short rotation, not enough guys to sub in, then normally your depth chart is fairly sparse and your key guys are going to play more - because they have to. and in those kind of cases, you absolutely don't want getting tired, because you are going to be fighting fatigue as it is, your whole rotation will be getting fatigued, and you want to level that out as much as possible.

in this case you sort of have the option, because you don't have like, 400 overall walkons as your only option to fill the chart. you have sort of warm bodies you could slide to the 4/5. but they are really bad for that purpose. seems to me your only viable backup pf is lockhart. so i would just put the 3 bigs you have at C1-C3 and PF1-PF3, and probably put lockhart in at PF4, and have all 4 of them on fairly fresh.

just to kinda clarify, i know drichar was missing werner's ineligibility on his starting thing. i'm assuming he'd adjust by removing werner and take that one pf off the sf list (or all of them). in those sort of scenarios, where you are short on the depth chart and folks are going to play fatigued no matter what you, that is where getting tired is definitely the wrong way to go. playing getting tired with a depth chart like that, where you are really short, its just a mismatch - its internally at conflict with itself, you really do not want to combine those two, the players get too tired and fatigue wears unevenly, which is bad.

shoe's way, he has guys at the 4/5 to actually sub in if folks get tired. in that case using getting tired could make sense, so shoe's method is sort of internally consistent if you will. i just don't like johnson or mount sliding that far right, and i think using the short rotation and letting the raw constraints of manpower lead to the higher fatigue subbing of the starters, is generally speaking a superior option here. i don't think its particularly close, although against fb/fcp and press there's a real argument to be had (but still, getting tired is highly dubious in those cases - the answer in those cases is going to be somewhere in the middle). but at least shoe is taking one of the two reasonable roads in his approach - i just don't like where it leads.

important part of the big rotation here is to make sure there's a decent stamina gap between the two starting bigs, if you can swing it. the natural setup here is probably rachael and campbell as starters, and that works for stamina, too. but as these players grow, a different story might emerge. probably not but just mentioning because its important to consider in these cases. i will start the best and 3rd best big in a lot of these cases, if that lets me have a significantly bigger stamina differential between the two starters, to allow a more natural and fatigue-leveling rotation to take hold.

“important part of the big rotation here is to make sure there's a decent stamina gap between the two starting bigs, if you can swing it. the natural setup here is probably rachael and campbell as starters, and that works for stamina, too.“

That’s the whole point of using getting tired here *for one starter, and the backup*, to my thinking. I wouldn’t put Johnson or Mount (or anyone except perhaps the walkon, but likely only against a press) in the 4th spot of PF/C, if that’s what you mean, though maybe you meant you don’t like them at the 3. Those frontcourt guys *are* going to get fatigued when there are only 3 guys to cover 80 minutes, so understanding that, the question is how you manage the stamina gap to A) maximize effectiveness, and B) minimize the need for pulling Lockhart over. Who can you accept getting more tired, who do you want to pull earlier, and how does that choice set you up to get the most good minutes out of these 3? I don’t love those guards at the 3 either, so I want to keep my 3 frontcourt players on the floor as much as possible. Ideally, you get 27 minutes out of the PF set to getting tired, and 18 minutes out of the C at fairly fresh. That leaves 25 frontcourt minutes for the backup, and it’s unlikely it will all shakeout for you, but you want as much as possible, which is why I have him set to getting tired. I would also probably try to slide that PF over into the second slot of the C as well, but I never remember how the open slot works with the “depth chart math”, and didn’t want to overcomplicate, maybe gil will clarify that. ;) Anyway, the goal is to get as many of those ~25 minutes as possible eaten up by Newell, so Lockhart doesn’t have to spend (much) time playing PF/C.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I definitely have a lot to consider. Clearly I need to recruit better.

What would you guys do about PG? I don’t really think I have one legit PG on the roster. I like Gingras, but his passing isn’t very good for a PG and his stamina sucks. Would he play better as an SG? If so, who should play PG? I’ve used Christner there, but he’s not ideal either. What PG/SG combo would you use?

Thanks,

Jody

Posted by shoe3 on 9/13/2021 1:58:00 PM (view original):
“important part of the big rotation here is to make sure there's a decent stamina gap between the two starting bigs, if you can swing it. the natural setup here is probably rachael and campbell as starters, and that works for stamina, too.“

That’s the whole point of using getting tired here *for one starter, and the backup*, to my thinking. I wouldn’t put Johnson or Mount (or anyone except perhaps the walkon, but likely only against a press) in the 4th spot of PF/C, if that’s what you mean, though maybe you meant you don’t like them at the 3. Those frontcourt guys *are* going to get fatigued when there are only 3 guys to cover 80 minutes, so understanding that, the question is how you manage the stamina gap to A) maximize effectiveness, and B) minimize the need for pulling Lockhart over. Who can you accept getting more tired, who do you want to pull earlier, and how does that choice set you up to get the most good minutes out of these 3? I don’t love those guards at the 3 either, so I want to keep my 3 frontcourt players on the floor as much as possible. Ideally, you get 27 minutes out of the PF set to getting tired, and 18 minutes out of the C at fairly fresh. That leaves 25 frontcourt minutes for the backup, and it’s unlikely it will all shakeout for you, but you want as much as possible, which is why I have him set to getting tired. I would also probably try to slide that PF over into the second slot of the C as well, but I never remember how the open slot works with the “depth chart math”, and didn’t want to overcomplicate, maybe gil will clarify that. ;) Anyway, the goal is to get as many of those ~25 minutes as possible eaten up by Newell, so Lockhart doesn’t have to spend (much) time playing PF/C.

ahh ok, i was reading your depth chart backwards by the end somehow. i thought you had the guards sliding over. but if its just the 3 bigs and lockhart, who you also have SF, then my comment is the same as drichar. it doesn't make sense to mix 2 strategies of getting tired and short rotations on the depth chart. you already have a short rotation on the depth chart, and getting tired is going to make it worse, not better.

really greatly simplifies the whole thing, if only i was able to competently read your post in the first place... which i sort of think i did, for my first post. but most definitely not the second!

but i do agree the 1 getting tired for a big does make sense to try to force it to rotate the starters on different frequency. and i do like that for 3 man rotations at least sometimes. just not so much for 3 man rotations that are the whole rotation!

Posted by gillispie on 9/13/2021 5:26:00 PM (view original):
but i do agree the 1 getting tired for a big does make sense to try to force it to rotate the starters on different frequency. and i do like that for 3 man rotations at least sometimes. just not so much for 3 man rotations that are the whole rotation!

I get where you’re coming from. The general principle you’re talking about, if I understand you, is why I generally tell folks it’s better to leave guys at fairly fresh and bring in inferior players *for a few minutes* at the position, even if it means a walkon. Trouble is, in this case, there’s no one else. The walkon is really bad and is out of position in the frontcourt to boot, it’s not like he’s at least got a little rebounding or something. Those 3 players are going to get fatigued in a normal game, no two ways about it. Like maybe if the opponent plays zone and they both slowdown for some reason, they can make it through, but that seems unlikely. So with everyone at fairly fresh, it’s going to pull someone over, the question is when, and for how long. And when it does, that causes other problems - as Jody has mentioned, the probable starting pg has very limited stamina, and can likely get through no more than 20mpg on fairly fresh even with slowdown against a non-pressing opponent. So I would want as little as possible.

So I’m going on the premise here that:
1) the bigger the minute gap between the PF and C, the less you need a 4th frontcourt player, when you have the 3rd guy backing up both. And,
2) the best way to get the biggest gap without causing more fatigue problems than you already know you’ll be dealing with is to have the weaker stamina starter set to “fairly fresh” and the stronger stamina starter, along with the principle backup at both positions, set to “getting tired.”

Again, I want to get close to that 27-18-25 minute shakedown, that’s the goal, so no one else needs to come over. Granted, I don’t play man, but I find the press/zone combo to be pretty comparable in terms of fatigue. Now sometimes it ends up around 25-17-22 with a need for a 4th to play a handful of minutes, usually when you’re playing a press, and any foul trouble will make it worse, obviously. That’s what you are facing with a roster with 3 true frontcourt players.

I’d be curious to see gil’s proposed lineup. I don’t see any way this roster gets by without having fatigue issues in the frontcourt. The issue for me is about who is absorbing it so that the impact is mitigated.

everything you are saying is on point, for the scenario where you have say 3 primary bigs (or guards, or sg/sf, or sf/pf) who you want to get as many minutes as possible, in spite of virtually always having fresh players on the bench behind them on the depth chart. when you have like a pf1, c1, pf2/c2, and then a pf3, and a c3, and you really want those 4th and 5th bigs (the pf3 and c3) to play as little as possible, playing 1/2 starters on getting tired, and sometimes the backup as well, can really help keep pf3 and c3 where you want them - on the bench! so totally in sync with all that.

where its different is when you have a short rotation imposed on you, and then its about fatigue leveling, trying to spread around the fatigue so that you are playing with reasonably fresh players for as long as possible. i think the easiest way to understand it is to step through. the simplest case is with 3 bigs with literally nobody else listed, let's go with campbell as the pf1, rachael as the c1, and newmann as the backup, with everyone on fairly fresh. because campbell has better stamina, we are going to want to slightly prefer campbell / newmann over newmann rachael, so the depth chart for 4/5 would be as follows:
PF - campbell / blank / newmann / rachael
C - rachael / newmann / campbell
(the consequence being, campbell pf1 + newmann c2 position total is 3, while rachael c1 and newmann pf3 total is 4)

the typical first sub happens when both starters are fairly fresh, because typically there isn't a sub opportunity between the time the lower stamina big first hits fairly fresh, and when the second does. occasionally there is, and that's great when it happens, but it doesn't change the conclusions. anyway assume campbell and rachael are now both fairly fresh. because there's no option for them both to sub out, newmann subs in for rachael and now its campbell FF (fairly fresh) and newmann F (fresh), with rachael FF on the bench.

shortly later, hopefully, rachael is going to tick back up to fairly fresh, and will be ready to sub back in. there are really two scenarios from here, but they are similar - either newmann is still fresh, and campbell is fairly fresh (or perhaps getting tired), and campbell now comes out, making a newman F / rachael F lineup with FF campbell on the bench. this is good - we want the most tired guy on the bench if we can get it. alternatively, we may not get a quick sub opportunity, and newman might be fairly fresh now - which means campbell is probably down to getting tired (he was fairly fresh when newman came in at 100 fatigue, so its unlikely he's still fairly fresh). in that case, the same thing happens - campbell is 2 fatigue settings past his sub threshold, and newmann is 1 fatigue setting past his, so newmann plays, and we have newmann FF / rachael F, with campbell GT on the bench, as is ideal for fatigue leveling.

at this point we've fallen into a nice 3 man rotation. newmann went in as quickly as possible, and stays in for the next sub, allowing him to accumulate decent fatigue while the 2 starters rotate. next sub, newmann will be coming out and resting up on the bench, and we'll likely never have a big on the bench at 100 fatigue again - we'll always be recharging someone. stepping through 1 last sub, in the above paragraph scenario 1, newman F / rachael F with campbell FF on the bench - with newmann as a somewhat tired fresh, and rachael as a fresher fresh - is going to transition to something like campbell F / rachael F or FF, with newmann FF on the bench, which is what we want. in scenario two, newmann FF / rachael F, campbell GT on the bench (with rachael near 100 fatigue), the instant newmann hits GT or campbell comes back up to FF, we are ready for another sub, getting newmann back to the bench to recharge. rachael will likely come out next, and then on the following sub, campbell. this is what we want - our sub gets in quickly - and then each player takes a turn rotating. eventually campbell's higher stamina might have him stay in an extra cycle, and that's fine.

OK, now let's look at the exact same setup, but with newmann on getting tired. first sub opportunity, we transition to campbell FF / newmann F, with rachael FF on the bench. so far so good. shortly later, rachael is going to tick back up to fairly fresh again, and we have two scenarios (the same two as before). in scenario one, campbell is now a fairly tired FF, and newmann is a fairly tired F, and here we diverge from the above. now campbell will stay in because of his getting tired setting, and newmann will sub back out, and we'll have a campbell FF / rachael F lineup, with newmann F on the bench. this is bad - its very possible newmann will get up to 100 and we'll be recharging nobody, before he subs back in - and cambell will be getting pretty fatigued pretty early, and he'll play the rest of the game generally pretty fatigued. our fatigue-leveling is definitely sub-optimal here.

second scenario (same as second scenario above), a bit more time passes before the 2nd sub - now campbell is GT, newmann is FF, and rachael is F. what happens here? obviously rachael plays, but here also, newmann will come back out, as both campbell and newmann are 1 level over their sub threshold, and the tie breaker as always goes to the starter. so we will see campbell GT / rachael F, with newmann FF on the bench. newmann and campbell are probably both at the less-fatigued end of their ranges - which isn't bad yet. but by the next sub, campbell might be tired, with newman fresh, and that is really not ideal. we'd much rather newmann stay in, and become a tired FF, or a fresh GT, and let campell get back up to FF or even a tired fresh, before he comes back in. that would be a 3-man rotation. but once again, here in scenario 2, we diverge on the 2nd sub, and in a bad way. campbell stays in longer and fatigue is spread around unevenly.

anyway, i hope that makes sense... by leaving all 3 bigs on fairly fresh, you immediately get a rotation with 2 desirable properties - the sub comes in ASAP, so as little time is spent recharging nobody as possible - and the sub pattern falls into a 3-man alternating pattern, for fatigue leveling. it may (and probably will) change up a bit later, as different stamina levels eventually cause campbell to stay in for an extra cycle, but we want to put that off as long as possible. the point is once everyone is at least a little bit tired, we really want the least tired guys to play - and a fairly fresh fatigue rotation accomplishes that goal better than anything. with campbell on getting tired, by the 2nd sub opportunity we are already violating the desirable properties, with the backup going back to the bench before both starters have had a turn to sit. and then for the rest of the game, our fatigue leveling is going to be less efficient because campbell is on average going to be more fatigued than the other guys, due to his getting tired setting.