Take Out Quicker/Leave in Longer Topic

Anybody have a strong opinion on these settings? I've always kept it normal for everyone, but have been wondering lately if that's a mistake.

I think from what I've seen, if a guy picks up 2 fouls in the first half set to normal, he will basically sit the rest of the half unless the guys behind him pick up 2 fouls. I've lost a few games because my best player will sit for 15 straight minutes. Would take out quicker pull him after 1 foul and then put him back in after a few minutes? Does leave in longer only base substitution off of fatigue and compltely ignore fouls?
5/26/2022 4:21 PM
i have been thinking about this too. I have recently moved my better players to leave in longer. I want them playing as many minutes as possible. If they all end up in the first half. so be it.
5/26/2022 4:46 PM
Posted by Fregoe on 5/26/2022 4:46:00 PM (view original):
i have been thinking about this too. I have recently moved my better players to leave in longer. I want them playing as many minutes as possible. If they all end up in the first half. so be it.
This was my thinking as well. You risk them fouling out sooner and not being in at the end of the game, but minutes are minutes and leave in longer at least guarantees they play whereas taking them out and having them end the game with 2 or 3 fouls totally ruins your first half for nothing. Especially in a simulation, where 1 minute in the first half is equal to a minute of crunch time...there is no end of game clutch factor like in real life.
5/26/2022 5:10 PM
I tend to have my higher IQ, high leverage (high load distribution and minutes) upperclassmen set to leave in longer, when I think about it. Exceptions are when they have low-ish ath/def/stamina, in which case they might be foul magnets anyway, so especially with FB/P I leave them alone.
5/26/2022 5:46 PM
Posted by Baums_away on 5/26/2022 5:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 5/26/2022 4:46:00 PM (view original):
i have been thinking about this too. I have recently moved my better players to leave in longer. I want them playing as many minutes as possible. If they all end up in the first half. so be it.
This was my thinking as well. You risk them fouling out sooner and not being in at the end of the game, but minutes are minutes and leave in longer at least guarantees they play whereas taking them out and having them end the game with 2 or 3 fouls totally ruins your first half for nothing. Especially in a simulation, where 1 minute in the first half is equal to a minute of crunch time...there is no end of game clutch factor like in real life.
leave in longer for all players always is the rule of thumb i use. as you said, the minute of 1st half is equal to a minute at the end of the game means that you really want to optimize for total minutes (more or less - the existence of feedback and last 1-6 minute tempo control does make that not entirely true).

i tend to prioritize depth, good deep teams like your tark fb/fcp teams, i think the always leave in longer is a no-brainer. its really teams who are perhaps like, 8 deep and less, where i can see some theoretical argument, which would go something like 'the chance of me getting multiple players fouled out by the end and playing dead tired is too high if i play leave in longer'. in such a circumstance, the minute played late is much more valuable than the minute played early, because of fatigue-leveling. but i could also see that on shorter fb/fcp teams, by the same logic. if you ran 9 guys maybe its too high a risk?

there is also feedback on fouls committed, making it less likely that a quick-2-fouls-er will get a 3rd. because of that one, its REALLY hard for me to get away from the leave in longer. a high end coach like you with good teams, it feels like there's no real argument to be had against a full slate of leave in longer.
5/26/2022 7:05 PM (edited)
Yup, I set all players to "Leave in Longer". We live and die by the foul.
5/26/2022 9:46 PM
Posted by gillispie on 5/26/2022 7:05:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Baums_away on 5/26/2022 5:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by Fregoe on 5/26/2022 4:46:00 PM (view original):
i have been thinking about this too. I have recently moved my better players to leave in longer. I want them playing as many minutes as possible. If they all end up in the first half. so be it.
This was my thinking as well. You risk them fouling out sooner and not being in at the end of the game, but minutes are minutes and leave in longer at least guarantees they play whereas taking them out and having them end the game with 2 or 3 fouls totally ruins your first half for nothing. Especially in a simulation, where 1 minute in the first half is equal to a minute of crunch time...there is no end of game clutch factor like in real life.
leave in longer for all players always is the rule of thumb i use. as you said, the minute of 1st half is equal to a minute at the end of the game means that you really want to optimize for total minutes (more or less - the existence of feedback and last 1-6 minute tempo control does make that not entirely true).

i tend to prioritize depth, good deep teams like your tark fb/fcp teams, i think the always leave in longer is a no-brainer. its really teams who are perhaps like, 8 deep and less, where i can see some theoretical argument, which would go something like 'the chance of me getting multiple players fouled out by the end and playing dead tired is too high if i play leave in longer'. in such a circumstance, the minute played late is much more valuable than the minute played early, because of fatigue-leveling. but i could also see that on shorter fb/fcp teams, by the same logic. if you ran 9 guys maybe its too high a risk?

there is also feedback on fouls committed, making it less likely that a quick-2-fouls-er will get a 3rd. because of that one, its REALLY hard for me to get away from the leave in longer. a high end coach like you with good teams, it feels like there's no real argument to be had against a full slate of leave in longer.
I’ll just say a couple things about this. First, I kind of mostly agree. I think the difference between gil and me here is smallish, he generally uses it basically all the time (if I understand him) and I use it on most of the players that matter in my distribution, and the net effect is roughly the same. And perhaps the main reason I don’t use it for all players all the time is because I like to run uptempo FB/P, which essentially falls under a condition he allows for, the part about multiple players fouling out and the rest playing dead tired, and I don’t want to be doing tedious things like switching players back and forth when I change tempo. So I just stick with high leverage players.

So probably where we diverge, and I don’t think it even really matters much, though I’d be interested if gil disagrees, is that I don’t see any compelling reason to leave freshmen or any non-leverage player in when they get in foul trouble. As long as my depth chart is deep, and I can cover a problem or two, I’m generally not as concerned if those guys have to sit for an extended period in the 1st half as I am if they foul out, which potentially causes me more problems (especially with FB/P teams that like to go uptempo when feasible).

Also, I’m not too sure about the feedback on fouls committed thing. I know the sim lays off when a team has multiple guys foul out. I don’t think it necessarily lays off when a player picks up 3 or 4. Or if it does, it is not consistent; might be player IQ related? There are still lots of foul magnets out there, including a few on my teams, lol. Most of them seem to be low IQ guards, especially those with low-ish ath/def - precisely the guys I tend not to leave in longer. And yeah, they will rack up fouls whether you leave them in longer or not.
5/27/2022 6:11 PM
Take Out Quicker/Leave in Longer Topic

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