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gillispie1
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Quote: Originally posted by mlatsko1 on 1/03/2010
 
Exploit / Cheat are synonymous in the software world.  (Simulation, programming, software... see a connection there?)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Do not confuse the noun and the verb.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Unintended - Exploit, Intended - variations in the effectiveness of a defensive type.  Intended can be over done, but meant to be functional  The action that was taking was not meant to be.  Therefore, it's an exploit.  And as I've covered in the software world, expoit = cheat.  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Footwedge = kicking your ball to improve your position.  It's cheating, FYI.

who is to decide what is intended, and what is unintended? you? me? CS does not actively or accurately communicate this to us. so how would you deal with the problem?

you say variations of effectiveness in defense type is intended. how do you know this? how do you know admin intended the large majority of strings of titles to come to pressing defenses?
1/3/2010 7:24 PM
thewizard2
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1/3/2010 7:25 PM
thewizard2
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I suppose the comical thing is nobody has put blame on the programmer and anyone else at WIS that tests out the game.
1/3/2010 7:31 PM
zhawks
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The fact is if he found a so called glitch and tried it and it was in fact a glitch (which c'mon guys do we all think that was intended?) and it was submitted to WIS (and likely pushed past level 1 CS, since we all know you won't get jack from them) and was said "No that is intended" then fine. Clearly it was not intended and when it was brought to WIS attention they very quickly acted to close said loophole / glitch. I don't understand how it isn't cheating in some form of the word.
1/3/2010 10:21 PM
coach_billyg
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Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 1/03/2010The fact is if he found a so called glitch and tried it and it was in fact a glitch (which c'mon guys do we all think that was intended?) and it was submitted to WIS (and likely pushed past level 1 CS, since we all know you won't get jack from them) and was said "No that is intended" then fine. Clearly it was not intended and when it was brought to WIS attention they very quickly acted to close said loophole / glitch. I don't understand how it isn't cheating in some form of the word.

i don't think doing something unintended comes close to implying cheating. it is not nearly that simple. how do you know that when it was brought to WIS attention they very quickly acted? people have known about this for apparently multiple years. who knows if, or how many times, CS was made aware of the issue? all i know, through observation of forum postings, is that a fair number of people were aware of the issue as of a couple months ago, and there seemed to be people using it, and nobody complaining about the use. at that point, i don't care if it is intended or unintended by CS. something unintended that is part of the game for a while and accepted to a reasonable degree by the community is 100% fair game in my opinion.

that is why i don't feel it was cheating. i don't think either of us would be foolish enough to try and define precisely or objectively what defines cheating. but beyond that, i don't think you or anybody can point to a single characteristic, or at set of characteristics of this situation, that clearly indicate cheating in every instance. would you agree with that? to me, that at the very least makes it a gray area.
1/3/2010 11:50 PM
zhawks
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billy furry claimed to have been told by wis that it was ok, which clearly was not true. i mentioned it once and within 24r hours it is fixed.
1/3/2010 11:59 PM
coach_billyg
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Quote: Originally posted by zhawks on 1/04/2010billy furry claimed to have been told by wis that it was ok, which clearly was not true. i mentioned it once and within 24r hours it is fixed.

are you saying just furry cheated? or anybody who used a redshirt to get out of a promise?
1/4/2010 12:02 AM
zhawks
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both in a way. that wasnt the intended purpose of redshirts was it? i completely agree that there are a lot of things that could use some work in making them better and red shirts is one of them. i just dont see how purposefuly and knowingly using something that was not intended to be used in this way is not cheating. if the use of it was ignorant and the coach didnt know that they were using it to try and get away with not fulfilling their promises then i wouldnt consider it such or if a coach did bring it to wis attention when they realized what was going on i wouldnt.
1/4/2010 12:10 AM
emy1013
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 1/04/2010both in a way. that wasnt the intended purpose of redshirts was it? i completely agree that there are a lot of things that could use some work in making them better and red shirts is one of them. i just dont see how purposefuly and knowingly using something that was not intended to be used in this way ischeating. if the use of it was ignorant and the coach didnt know that they were using it to try and get away with not fulfilling their promises then i wouldnt consider it such or if a coach did bring it to wis attention when they realized what was going on i wouldnt


Little confused here.....are you saying this is okay or not?
1/4/2010 12:28 AM
coach_billyg
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so, do i understand correctly, you are saying the reason it was cheating is people were using redshirts in a way that was not the intended purpose?

do you think there is any distinction between these two cases: in both, you are fairly convinced something is not working as intended, but it has been that way for quite some time. case 1: you don't think others are using it. case 2: you think a significant number of people know about it, are using it, and there is no objection to this that you have heard of.
1/4/2010 12:31 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By emy1013 on 1/04/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 1/04/2010
both in a way. that wasnt the intended purpose of redshirts was it? i completely agree that there are a lot of things that could use some work in making them better and red shirts is one of them. i just dont see how purposefuly and knowingly using something that was not intended to be used in this way ischeating. if the use of it was ignorant and the coach didnt know that they were using it to try and get away with not fulfilling their promises then i wouldnt consider it such or if a coach did bring it to wis attention when they realized what was going on i wouldnt.



Little confused here.....are you saying this is okay or not?
Thanks emy, my bad I corrected it.
1/4/2010 8:46 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By coach_billyg on 1/04/2010so, do i understand correctly, you are saying the reason it was cheating is people were using redshirts in a way that was not the intended purpose?

do you think there is any distinction between these two cases: in both, you are fairly convinced something is not working as intended, but it has been that way for quite some time. case 1: you don't think others are using it. case 2: you think a significant number of people know about it, are using it, and there is no objection to this that you have heard of
In either of those cases it should be brought to the attention of seble, my point in case is when it was done it was very quickly fixed, ie showing it was not intended to be doing what it was.
1/4/2010 8:47 AM
furry_nipps
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1/4/2010 11:41 AM
dalter
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 1/03/2010
You're trying to represent your opinion ("exploit = cheating") as fact, when it's anything but. I disagree with your opinion that if you use something unintented in the sim to your advantage, that is equivalent to cheating.

There have been many, many instances in the time that we've been playing HD that there have been unintended things going on in the sim. There were really bad glitches where running halfcourt press with bad/F iq's was really helping teams, and another one where running multiple double teams was actually making areas that WIS meant to be weaker (like rebounding) even stronger.

Were the people that were playing hcp or multiple dt's every game cheating? Not in my opinion.

I still would like this to be answered. Z, it was really intended for mlat, but feel free to take a crack if you want.
1/4/2010 11:48 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 1/04/2010
Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 1/03/2010

You're trying to represent your opinion ("exploit = cheating") as fact, when it's anything but. I disagree with your opinion that if you use something unintented in the sim to your advantage, that is equivalent to cheating.

There have been many, many instances in the time that we've been playing HD that there have been unintended things going on in the sim. There were really bad glitches where running halfcourt press with bad/F iq's was really helping teams, and another one where running multiple double teams was actually making areas that WIS meant to be weaker (like rebounding) even stronger.

Were the people that were playing hcp or multiple dt's every game cheating? Not in my opinion.

I still would like this to be answered. Z, it was really intended for mlat, but feel free to take a crack if you want.
Cheating

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1/4/2010 11:59 AM
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