BCS Power - Page 10 - Hoops Dynasty

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Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 5:19:00 PM (view original):
Quote post by tianyi7886 on 5/14/2012 10:36:00 AM:

"Are you saying it's impossible to take a non-bcs team to greatness under the current system with baseline? I highly disagree:"

No. That is not what I said. Your just not going to get any Georgetowns, because the baseline of a dynasty that you build will not rise like it does in real life. Or fall like it does in real life.

So what is your point? How is D1 any different from D2/D3 once you eliminate baseline and have prestige work the same way as D2/D3? I just showed you all those empty name brand schools across various worlds, so obviously, coaches value recruiting edge over name brand in D1.

5/14/2012 5:21 PM

mykids_31206

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Getting rid of recruiting bonuses would make recruiting for mids easier, but thats not realistic so i like the bonuses. But baseline prestige needs to have some automatic adjustment over the short and long term.

5/14/2012 5:26 PM

tianyi7886

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Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 5:26:00 PM (view original):
Getting rid of recruiting bonuses would make recruiting for mids easier, but thats not realistic so i like the bonuses. But baseline prestige needs to have some automatic adjustment over the short and long term.

Is baseline the problem or is conf prestige the problem? I'm leaning towards the latter.

5/14/2012 5:29 PM

mykids_31206

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I said I was not going to do this. I will repeat

In HD the mid-majors that become very good teams dont have a Big East to join. So let them develop their Conference into a great one. Yeah, developing a St. Thomas Aquainus into a DII champion is cool. But developing a Mercer into a DI powerhouse would be amazing. DI is the pinnacle. Everyone wants to be a John Thompson.

In real life people want to coach at the elite schools. In HD it is the same. You will still have good coaches coaching elite schools. Coaches will always be gunning to coach those elite schools. In HD we dont have coaches who are gunning to coach certain DII or DIII schools. 99% of coaches have never even heard of any of those schools.

So if you remove baseline prestige, DI will never be like DII or DIII because of the popularity of the elite schools. Just like in real life.

5/14/2012 5:52 PM

milkamania

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Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 5:52:00 PM (view original):
I said I was not going to do this. I will repeat

In HD the mid-majors that become very good teams dont have a Big East to join. So let them develop their Conference into a great one. Yeah, developing a St. Thomas Aquainus into a DII champion is cool. But developing a Mercer into a DI powerhouse would be amazing. DI is the pinnacle. Everyone wants to be a John Thompson.

In real life people want to coach at the elite schools. In HD it is the same. You will still have good coaches coaching elite schools. Coaches will always be gunning to coach those elite schools. In HD we dont have coaches who are gunning to coach certain DII or DIII schools. 99% of coaches have never even heard of any of those schools.

So if you remove baseline prestige, DI will never be like DII or DIII because of the popularity of the elite schools. Just like in real life.

except without baseline prestige, there are no elite schools. if everyone is the same, then no one is elite. D1 is only the pinnacle because of baseline. without it, you have D2 and D3, which many many people seem to enjoy.

and you keep mentioning john thompson, great, what was that, 35 years ago. I must be missing the mid majors that the big 6 schools are dying to pick up. sure there was conference realignment, but that was 99% due to TV money and trying to get into new markets. you think the big east was dying to get SMU and Houston before they got raided?? No, they were trying to survive and did what they had to, mostly to stay eligible for BCS standing in football. and why isn't Butler in the Big 10 or Gonzaga in the Pac whatever they are now? again, the last mid major to win the NT was UNLV 20+ years ago and what Big 6 conference did they get in??

why would Mercer as a nat'l powerhouse be amazing. they would be no different from Duke in your scenario, so how is it special? the game that you describe and want to play already exists, but for some reason you want to take the game that others enjoy and change it to the one you like,

5/14/2012 6:17 PM

tianyi7886

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Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 5:52:00 PM (view original):
I said I was not going to do this. I will repeat

In HD the mid-majors that become very good teams dont have a Big East to join. So let them develop their Conference into a great one. Yeah, developing a St. Thomas Aquainus into a DII champion is cool. But developing a Mercer into a DI powerhouse would be amazing. DI is the pinnacle. Everyone wants to be a John Thompson.

In real life people want to coach at the elite schools. In HD it is the same. You will still have good coaches coaching elite schools. Coaches will always be gunning to coach those elite schools. In HD we dont have coaches who are gunning to coach certain DII or DIII schools. 99% of coaches have never even heard of any of those schools.

So if you remove baseline prestige, DI will never be like DII or DIII because of the popularity of the elite schools. Just like in real life.

You still haven't answered my question. What's the difference between Syracuse and St. Thomas Aquinas once you remove baseline? Your argument is "hey Syracuse has real name brand value, so people are going to flock to it."

As you stated, " Coaches will always be gunning to coach those elite schools." Why are coaches gunning for the elite schools? My position is, coaches gun for elite schools because they have a built in baseline advantage, not because of your "name value" argument.

I have already shown you (via various big name vacancies across different worlds) that WIS coaches value recruiting edge over name brand value. Without baseline prestige, what kind of value does the "elite schools" actually have?

Or let me put it in even more concrete terms. Assume a D1 world w/o baseline prestige. Suppose Syracuse has a 1% chance of winning the NC because it is surrounded by 40 schools, while Weber State has a 10% chance of winning the NT because it's only competition in Utah is Utah and Colorado in CO, so it gets many more top recruits. Given this situation, do you think more coaches would gun for Weber State or Syracuse?

5/14/2012 6:58 PM (edited)

mykids_31206

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Because they have more fans in HD. Coaches will continue to flock to them without a higher baseline prestige. It is because of the appeal. Just look at peoples favorite schools. You can disagree with that all you want, but its just the reality of things.

Very simple. Syracuse. Even if that were to somehow become the situation. It would still be Syracuse.

5/14/2012 7:34 PM

tianyi7886

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Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 7:34:00 PM (view original):
Because they have more fans in HD. Coaches will continue to flock to them without a higher baseline prestige. It is because of the appeal. Just look at peoples favorite schools. You can disagree with that all you want, but its just the reality of things.

Very simple. Syracuse. Even if that were to somehow become the situation. It would still be Syracuse.

If name branding is as big as you say, why is Florida empty in Phelan, Ohio State empty in Rupp, Penn State (I know, Penn St. has never been a basketball school) along with Texas Tech and Texas A&M empty in Naismith, BC and Virginia empty in Wooden. There aren't any fans of these teams in any of these worlds?!?

Obviously the reality of things is that you are wrong and your suggestion of removing baseline from D1 altogether and have it be the same as D2/D3 is stupid.

Or let's try answer this scenario. Suppose baseline exists in this game, but reversed. Syracuse has D baseline, Weber State has B baseline, which team do you think most coaches would flock to?

5/14/2012 9:08 PM (edited)

reinsel

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I've always be a fan of Weber State and Harold "the show" Arcineaux! UNC sucks!

5/14/2012 10:40 PM

mykids_31206

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Its just not going to work that way you think. But you feel it does. I am not able to convince you. Or I guess you are probably thinking the same thing about what I am saying.

We are just saying the same thing over and over. We just feel very differently about how no baseline would work in a Division that people are familiar with the teams.

I extend my hand. I wish you well with your team or teams.

5/14/2012 10:43 PM

tianyi7886

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Posted by mykids_31206 on 5/14/2012 10:43:00 PM (view original):
Its just not going to work that way you think. But you feel it does. I am not able to convince you. Or I guess you are probably thinking the same thing about what I am saying.

We are just saying the same thing over and over. We just feel very differently about how no baseline would work in a Division that people are familiar with the teams.

I extend my hand. I wish you well with your team or teams.

We are saying the same things over and over again, except I'm providing real examples from D1 of coaches not leaping into several big name BCS teams. If the name attraction is so strong, wouldn't these teams be filled especially when they also have higher baseline?

What you are saying is all theoretical and can't be backed up empirically from what is happening in HD.

5/14/2012 10:57 PM

mykids_31206

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OK man...You hold onto that.

I wish you well/

5/14/2012 11:14 PM

tbird9423

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Tianyi-- Your arguments aren't really arguments, just by definition if nothing else. You should hold the judgement and I'll answer your question: Why should I have to play in D2 or D3 forever because I am in favor of an "equitable" league. I'm not advocating changing your game, I am simply suggesting adding a new option for those of us who enjoy a level playing field. You sound like the guy who sued to play women's sports. Adding a new world or taking away baseline (or conference) prestige, doesn't end your game so why the anger at the proposition. My guess is because with a new "fair" option not based on money or longevity, you know most would choose to play that version. And that would make many of your accomplishments "under the old unfair and crazy system" that only a few people would be left to play. That is why I suggested the poll to see the differing interest levels.
Imagine a coach of UNC having a few non-productive seasons in real life-- Oh, wait, we have that example-- He got canned. He didn't have his conference counterparts calling his boss telling him that since they are good, he is good too? Are you shitting me? That's exactly what happens in this game. "Baseline/Conference" prestige does exist in real life but it woks the exact oppositte of this game.
Why can't you answer the simple question of why you dislike the idea of a Mercer becoming the best program in a world because their coach is the best? You can answer that or just call me stupid.

5/15/2012 12:11 AM

ekswimmer

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At the risk of entering a screaming match...here's my two cents. I do not think baseline prestige nor recruit generation works as it should. Baseline prestige should exist in DI, I like that there are 'power' teams and mid-majors. I prefer to try to win outside the BCS leagues, thinking its an added challenge. However, it is nearly impossible to win this way right now. Yes, I know there are examples, but outside of about 20 coaches that each have 1500 wins and already know everything about this game, its incredibly hard. Regardless of what you think it should be, Id hope we can agree on that.

That said, wouldnt we all prefer a world full of humans? How do you get that if you cater to the small minority by creating a huge competitive gap? You don't, as we are seeing in each world.

I think baselines need to be adjusted somehow. Whether that is by having a rolling baseline (maybe taking into account 10 years, 20 years, whatever) or doing away with conference prestige (all it does is keep the bad BCS teams high and the good mid-majors low), or preferably both. Personally, I think there should be more recruits with high potential, so that while the BCS teams get the 800+ players for 3-4 years, there are some that would fall to mid-majors that would compete as Seniors.

5/15/2012 1:01 AM

a_in_the_b

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Posted by tbird9423 on 5/15/2012 12:11:00 AM (view original):
Tianyi-- Your arguments aren't really arguments, just by definition if nothing else. You should hold the judgement and I'll answer your question: Why should I have to play in D2 or D3 forever because I am in favor of an "equitable" league. I'm not advocating changing your game, I am simply suggesting adding a new option for those of us who enjoy a level playing field. You sound like the guy who sued to play women's sports. Adding a new world or taking away baseline (or conference) prestige, doesn't end your game so why the anger at the proposition. My guess is because with a new "fair" option not based on money or longevity, you know most would choose to play that version. And that would make many of your accomplishments "under the old unfair and crazy system" that only a few people would be left to play. That is why I suggested the poll to see the differing interest levels.
Imagine a coach of UNC having a few non-productive seasons in real life-- Oh, wait, we have that example-- He got canned. He didn't have his conference counterparts calling his boss telling him that since they are good, he is good too? Are you shitting me? That's exactly what happens in this game. "Baseline/Conference" prestige does exist in real life but it woks the exact oppositte of this game.
Why can't you answer the simple question of why you dislike the idea of a Mercer becoming the best program in a world because their coach is the best? You can answer that or just call me stupid.

That part about the coach being canned would be the firing process, not baseline prestige ... the two are not particularly related.

And second ... Mercer should be able to become great ... but it should be harder for them to do than UNC or "Wow I made Mercer great!!!" Isn't particularly impressive.

And if anyone sounds like the guy suing to play women's sports, its you here. You are the one advocating a large change to accommodate your wants/needs. And removing all baseline prestige would be a MASSIVE change.

5/15/2012 6:38 AM

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