Canucks Thread - We Still Believe Topic

moy23
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Posted by andru2797 on 2/14/2011 8:59:00 PM (view original):
actually peter, since were talking about next season, neither team is a contender or a non-playoff team yet. and your calculations are not including a top 4 dman, which you will need, and which will cost a minimum of 3 million, unless you really believe the canucks would be comfortable starting the season with Rome or tanev in their top 4.

I believe even its all said and done, both teams will spend close to the cap and both teams will contend next season, because let's not forget the 4 million of bonuses the hawks didn't have this season. in essence, they were playing with a smaller cap than everyone else, hence the necessity to make all these moves. and for those saying that its as simple as trading Campbell and/or hossa, I have 2 very important points you may all be forgetting:

1. they both have no movement clauses

2. I would keep hossa, a proven nhl star calibre player who is one of the best two way players the game, over any two of versteeg, byfuglien, ladd or niemi simply because the only thing those players have proven is that they are wildly inconsistent, and I'd rather have the sure bet, especially at a manageable cap hit like hossas 5.2 million.
Yeah.... a $5.2 cap hit for an eternity for a guy that's aging and always hurt. If that's manageable to you then I don't know what to tell ya... other than you certainly are from the school of thought that got the hawks in this mess. Huet and Campbell must have been manageable too... and bowman not re-signing contracts by the deadline must have been manageable.

The hawks bought and paid for these high contract guys at a time where peak contracts were inflated.... they got Campbell for $7.4 mil, Huet for $5.5 mil, Hossa for for $5.6 mil, kane and toews for $6.3 each..... now goalie contracts are between $2-4 mil for players way better than Huet... and young star players like Mike Richards and Jeff Carter are getting paid $5 mil a year LTCs. Defenders like Hamhuis, Meszaros, etc are going for $4 mil. It's like the hawks bought a bunch of real estate back in 2007 and now all they have left are toxic assets that no one wants. Why do you think they traded versteeg, ladd, niemi, and buff? It's because they were the only manageable contracts with market value left on the team. Hossa manageable... not in the long term when you figure almost $13 mil (or ~1/4th of your team salary) is tied up in Campbell and Hossa for the next 5 seasons.
2/14/2011 9:35 PM
andru2797
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first off moy if you consider toews and kane at 6.3 each bad contracts and above market value, then the sedins would also be overpaid, as would pavel datsyuk and henrik zetterberg, and Ryan getzlaf, Corey Perry and evgeni malkin. just because your team paid a certain amount for their stars doesn't make them the default standard by which every other teams contracts should be measured. huet and Campbell were signed by dale tallon, who was also the gm during the rfa snafu.

and criticize hossa all you want, that signing helped win the Stanley cup so no matter what, it was worth it. ask any gmt in the nhl if he would do the same knowing that signing a player to a hossa type contract would guarantee him a Stanley cup and I'm sure every single one would answer an emphatic yes.
2/14/2011 9:59 PM
moy23
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Posted by andru2797 on 2/14/2011 10:00:00 PM (view original):
first off moy if you consider toews and kane at 6.3 each bad contracts and above market value, then the sedins would also be overpaid, as would pavel datsyuk and henrik zetterberg, and Ryan getzlaf, Corey Perry and evgeni malkin. just because your team paid a certain amount for their stars doesn't make them the default standard by which every other teams contracts should be measured. huet and Campbell were signed by dale tallon, who was also the gm during the rfa snafu.

and criticize hossa all you want, that signing helped win the Stanley cup so no matter what, it was worth it. ask any gmt in the nhl if he would do the same knowing that signing a player to a hossa type contract would guarantee him a Stanley cup and I'm sure every single one would answer an emphatic yes.
The rfa snafu was the asst gm bowman if I recall. Also I did not say Kane and toews were bad contracts... only that richie and carter which are similar talents each signed for $1 mil less per year. That adds up.

Lastly.... I would pay $60 mil to one player if it 'guaranteed' a Stanley Cup. I did not know players signed contracts with Stanley Cup guarantees.
2/15/2011 8:47 AM (edited)
peter_puck
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andru, it's a given that the Canucks will forever more be pushing the cap. That's called a healthy team in a healthy market willing to spend. While most American teams are going through cycles. I mean the Penguins are either leaving town or winning cups with the superstars they got when they were so pitiful. Remember, that's how Chicago got Toews and Kane in the first place.

2/15/2011 1:03 AM
moy23
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The 14 players the canucks have signed through next season for $46 mil are much better imo than the 10 the hawks have signed for $42 mil. Plus the canucks have a solid goalie in net.... the hawks still have ?s there with only Huet signed through next season.
2/15/2011 8:46 AM
andru2797
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Posted by peter_puck on 2/15/2011 1:03:00 AM (view original):

andru, it's a given that the Canucks will forever more be pushing the cap. That's called a healthy team in a healthy market willing to spend. While most American teams are going through cycles. I mean the Penguins are either leaving town or winning cups with the superstars they got when they were so pitiful. Remember, that's how Chicago got Toews and Kane in the first place.

peter, every hockey fan knows the market was never the problem in Chicago, but the owner. Chicagos market is more than strong enough to support paying up Rio the cap every season, but its very hard for an organization to stay on top if at some point they don't rebuild and keep trying to buy success. Chicago did it with kane and toews. Pittsburgh did it twice with Mario and sid & geno. Carolina did it with staal and ward. anaheim with getzlaf and Perry. all Stanley cup champions who built after hitting close to rock bottom. the sharks are perennial 1st place teams who actually do find some diamonds in the rough relatively late in the draft and yet they've never won a cup. the canucks have been a top tier, just below elite team for a decade now, with not much to show for it. the habs are the richest market and always spend and spend and they've gotten nowhere in nearly 20 years.

to criticize a franchise for winning because they drafted high after finishing near the bottom means that you're criticizing most of the last 20 Stanley cup champions.
2/15/2011 10:10 AM
andru2797
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Posted by moy23 on 2/15/2011 8:46:00 AM (view original):
The 14 players the canucks have signed through next season for $46 mil are much better imo than the 10 the hawks have signed for $42 mil. Plus the canucks have a solid goalie in net.... the hawks still have ?s there with only Huet signed through next season.
and that's fine you're entitled to think that, but ill reserve my judgement until Seabrook, Crawford, kopecky and brouwer are signed.
2/15/2011 10:13 AM
moy23
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Posted by andru2797 on 2/15/2011 10:13:00 AM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 2/15/2011 8:46:00 AM (view original):
The 14 players the canucks have signed through next season for $46 mil are much better imo than the 10 the hawks have signed for $42 mil. Plus the canucks have a solid goalie in net.... the hawks still have ?s there with only Huet signed through next season.
and that's fine you're entitled to think that, but ill reserve my judgement until Seabrook, Crawford, kopecky and brouwer are signed.
That would bring the Hawks over $50 mil for 14 returning players. The Hawks would still have to sign 7-9 more players with the remaining $9 mil. based on this season's performance its evident the 14 returning players on the hawks (no matter how good you may think they are) can't get it done without depth.... which again - it looks lke the hawks will be lacking. By re-signing the players the hawks have on the roster now they will continue to have a top 5ish (in the nhl) core group of 6-8 players and bottom 5ish rest of the roster (13-15 players). They will also still be weak in goal. Crawford has been good but he's still an unproven liability that needs to be hedged.
2/15/2011 10:47 AM
andru2797
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It's funny how half a good season is good enough for you to give Dustin Byfuglien the Norris, and yet in Crawford's case it makes him unproven.

And I'll keep asking until someone answers: Do you really think we've seen the best out of Toews, Kane, Bolland, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson? Are Jeremy Morin and Kyle Beach already past their primes in their early 20's? You can't honestly believe the Hawks don't have a future man cmon. I'm not saying they will win the Cup every year from until eternity here, but I doubt they will miss the playoffs for the next 10 years.
2/15/2011 12:47 PM
styckman
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Seabrook will look good in a Canucks uni next season.
2/15/2011 4:54 PM
moy23
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Posted by andru2797 on 2/15/2011 12:47:00 PM (view original):
It's funny how half a good season is good enough for you to give Dustin Byfuglien the Norris, and yet in Crawford's case it makes him unproven.

And I'll keep asking until someone answers: Do you really think we've seen the best out of Toews, Kane, Bolland, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson? Are Jeremy Morin and Kyle Beach already past their primes in their early 20's? You can't honestly believe the Hawks don't have a future man cmon. I'm not saying they will win the Cup every year from until eternity here, but I doubt they will miss the playoffs for the next 10 years.
Buff probably has some 200 games under his belt.... Crawford less than 50.

I think we have seen the best from toews (for the most part).... he's a 65 points per season player and a great captain and a player any team would want. Kane is an 80 point per season, 35 goals kind of player that's not serious about his career off the ice. How much better do you think they get? Will toews be the next messier or oates? Will Kaner score as much as malkin? I doubt it.... well maybe with trannies ;) jk.

Morin and the rest of the ahl'ers are going to improve, yes... but not right away. More times than not prospects turn into disappointments.... look no further than guys like Skille or frolik or better yet 2nd pick overall JVR on philly. Potential does not equal actual output.... and actual output is what wins games.
2/15/2011 6:44 PM
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moy23
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Posted by andru2797 on 2/15/2011 7:49:00 PM (view original):
yeah you're right. 23 old players have absolutely no room to grow and mature as people or players.
I never said that.

but along those lines, or extremes, if you'd like.  yeah you're right.  The Hawks have the next Yzerman/Hull, Tonelli/Bossy, Messier/Gretzky, Crosby/Malkin on their team.  we just don't know it yet.  I mean Toews has been scoring 100 points a season since he was 19 like Crosby, right?  And Kaner has been scoring 50 goals a season like a 19 year old Stamkos or a 20 year old Ovechkin , right?  

I'm not saying they are bad players.  I think Toews is already mature - thats what makes him great.  I don't see him reaching messier, oates, gretzky, yzerman levels.  He's been in the league 5 years now with nothing major trending in improvement.  Kane is not mature but has raw skill..... unfortunately he doesn't seem to take his job seriously when off the ice - and thats going to hamper his #s.  He's great - but a guy with that much raw talent should have Ovechkin #s by now imo. Once again no major trend showing improvement over the last 4 seasons for Kane. Kane still sucks at defense and I don't see him being able to carry a team on his shoulders without support like the greats have always been able to do.  Kane could have an outlier 100 point season.... but he's more than likely an 85 point per season player imo.  I could be wrong.   
2/15/2011 8:44 PM
holer
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Yzerman/Hull or Tonelli/Bossy?  Am I in the twilight zone?  In what world do these have significance?

2/15/2011 8:56 PM
moy23
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glad thats all you got out of that post - although I was thinking Trottier and typing Tonelli
2/15/2011 9:13 PM (edited)
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