Posted by Benis on 1/13/2018 2:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/13/2018 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/13/2018 9:04:00 AM (view original):
OK, I know some simply like to be annoying jerks but, sometimes, I'm getting at something.

In addition to these two guys, I've got two at WCSU with similar REB ratings. They have been running in lockstep wrt IQ and the 40ish point better ATH PF outrebounded the C(4-5+ REB) last season and, thru 3 games, is doing so again.

Thru three games since swapping to zone, where IQ is the same, the more athletic PF is outrebounding the C 26-17. I still have at least 7 games but I'm beginning to think ATH is simply far more important than IQ at least in REB.

Assuming that's correct, the question is......Why wouldn't we start more athletic PF at C if REB is similar? I'm assuming similar DEF but lower BLK from the PF. With 3-4 blocks per game, is shot alteration, that we can't put a number on, the difference?

Full disclaimer: I haven't read all 11 pages of this. ATH is incredibly important, especially at the lower levels. Whenever I mentor a new D3 coach I always tell them I'd rather take a 65 ath/75 reb guy over a 40 ath/100 reb guy. And you could change "reb" to LP or BLK and I'd say the same thing. Some of this is probably mitigated in 3.0 because we're seeing D3 teams that would have won D2 titles had they played in the 2.0 system.

I don't know if he still does it but mfnmyers racked up about 15 titles at D3 running FB/FCP and recruiting nothing but ATH and DEF while completely punting the other categories (his team BH and P on some of those championship teams was in the low 20's!). He just had so much more athleticism than anyone else and beat his teams into submission.

Hopefully I answered at least part of the question you were asking.

Totally agree with this.

myers doesn't go balls out for ath/def anymore. He's able to get high ath/def still but now because of the changes with 3.0, he gets more complete players. I saw the other day he had a PG on his team with 80 pass. unheard of!

For the individual decision, I think REB in more important than ATH and LP is more important than ATH but in the big picture ATH is used in so many equations that makes it soooooo important.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/13/2018 2:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Benis on 1/13/2018 2:24:00 PM (view original):

Posted by darnoc29099 on 1/13/2018 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/13/2018 9:04:00 AM (view original):
OK, I know some simply like to be annoying jerks but, sometimes, I'm getting at something.

In addition to these two guys, I've got two at WCSU with similar REB ratings. They have been running in lockstep wrt IQ and the 40ish point better ATH PF outrebounded the C(4-5+ REB) last season and, thru 3 games, is doing so again.

Thru three games since swapping to zone, where IQ is the same, the more athletic PF is outrebounding the C 26-17. I still have at least 7 games but I'm beginning to think ATH is simply far more important than IQ at least in REB.

Assuming that's correct, the question is......Why wouldn't we start more athletic PF at C if REB is similar? I'm assuming similar DEF but lower BLK from the PF. With 3-4 blocks per game, is shot alteration, that we can't put a number on, the difference?

Full disclaimer: I haven't read all 11 pages of this. ATH is incredibly important, especially at the lower levels. Whenever I mentor a new D3 coach I always tell them I'd rather take a 65 ath/75 reb guy over a 40 ath/100 reb guy. And you could change "reb" to LP or BLK and I'd say the same thing. Some of this is probably mitigated in 3.0 because we're seeing D3 teams that would have won D2 titles had they played in the 2.0 system.

I don't know if he still does it but mfnmyers racked up about 15 titles at D3 running FB/FCP and recruiting nothing but ATH and DEF while completely punting the other categories (his team BH and P on some of those championship teams was in the low 20's!). He just had so much more athleticism than anyone else and beat his teams into submission.

Hopefully I answered at least part of the question you were asking.

Totally agree with this.

myers doesn't go balls out for ath/def anymore. He's able to get high ath/def still but now because of the changes with 3.0, he gets more complete players. I saw the other day he had a PG on his team with 80 pass. unheard of!

For the individual decision, I think REB in more important than ATH and LP is more important than ATH but in the big picture ATH is used in so many equations that makes it soooooo important.

Yeah exactly, I agree.

I think that's a great point though and something to recognize. LP, BH, Pass, PER are ONLY used for offense while ath/spd are used for both - which is why they're so important.

Posted by Trentonjoe on 1/13/2018 2:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/13/2018 2:19:00 PM (view original):
Or, better phrased, what would be the downside of starting both PF and using the C as back-ups? And what is the purpose of recruiting low ATH C if you can find equally skilled, more ATH PF with weaker BLK skills?

The Sr. Center is better than the Sophomore PF....I would start the two older players.

Post players defense is a combination of ATH, DEF, and BLK. The simplest way of figuring out who the best defender is to add all three together. In zone, they are probably all more or less equal. They aren't but I don't have real confidence in saying this is 10% more important. In man and press, I use something like a 2/1.5/1 (DEF/ATH/BLK) as multipliers but that's a rough guess. To put another way, I would trade 2 points of block for 1 point of Def in most situations in man and press.

As 27 point favorites, I decided to start the two PF to see what happens. It wasn't good. I'd been heavy favorites in my first three games as well. While it doesn't show up in any specific number, my defense was much worse. OPP shooting % has been 46, 37.5, 36 and, last night 47.6.

at Alfred	1-3	0	0	Sim AI	5-4	-52	83-61	W
at Allegheny	1-3	0	0	Sim AI	1-0	-33	70-51	W
at Wesleyan	1-3	0	0	Sim AI	1-1	-33	83-49	W
at SUNY, Farmingdale	0-4	0	0	Sim AI	2-0	-27	76-75	W

OPPONENT	RESULT	FG	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	OFF	REB	AST	TO	STL	BLK	PF	PTS
@Alfred	W 83-61	23	50	46.0	7	21	33.3	8	10	80.0	10	26	18	16	6	0	18	61
@Allegheny	W 70-51	21	56	37.5	4	20	20.0	5	8	62.5	12	33	13	14	6	3	15	51
@Wesleyan	W 83-49	19	55	34.5	2	10	20.0	9	14	64.3	13	28	11	15	3	2	21	49
@SUNY, Farmingdale	W 76-75	30	63	47.6	7	21	33.3	8	12	66.7	11	33	16	14	10	3	17	75

My season is over. Tebo was F/F for first 18 games. Jansen was B-/B.
Tebo averaged .2459 REB per minute
Jansen averaged .2877

Tebo was C+/B- to B-/B for the next 11. Jansen was B-/C+ to B/B.
Tebo averaged .2481 REB per minute
Jansen averaged .2412

Understanding it's a small sample size, Tebo hardly moved the needle but Jansen dropped significantly. Jansen actually did better on the offensive boards(started with same IQ and improved), .0926 to .1061, so he lost out on the defensive end where he started C+ and finally reached B(where he was the entire 18 games before I switched O/D on the last cycle).

All three F FR in the original O shot significantly better when they started the new O at C+(B- now). I need to check to see if it worked in reverse the A/B guys who started C+ in last 11 games.

Of the 5 who were better under the old set(3xA-, B+, B), 3 shot worse under C+/B-. Overall, nothing significant, .4360 to .4346.

Of the 3 F starters(finished C+/B-), all shot much better. .4038 to .4900.

Not sure much was learned other than the difference between F/D and C+/B- is huge while the difference between A- and C+/B- is not.

I'm sure most vets knew this. Getting to A seems rather pointless.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/30/2017 2:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/30/2017 2:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/30/2017 2:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/30/2017 2:36:00 PM (view original):
Just not into the name-calling today. Don't worry, you'll only get warned.

I’m 100% sure I’m not going to get any warning at all.

I wouldn't be so sure. I've been warned for less in this forum. Several times.

I’ve literally never been warned for anything and I’ve been redlined by you and sj dozens of times.

See. No warning.

They aren’t even reviewing redlines anymore. So it doesn’t even matter.

I know. Just didn't feel like arguing with you over nonsense. As usual.

Oh, you two clowns wanna do that again?