The other thing that should happen now (regarding the flagrant cheating uncovered by Benis) is that all job firings should have the baseline re-set

Posted by Benis on 10/31/2022 4:57:00 PM (view original):
Honestly, half the credit goes to Swenske. If he wasn't so careless with his cheating, it might have continued to go unnoticed. The greedy fool.

With the passage of life, very few would have or could have taken the time and effort to do what you did Benis. You deserve every accolade that is being given to you.....and if it hasn't been done already, I second the notion that a world should be named after you.

While we’re talking about who else might be involved, I’m NOT accusing because I don’t know anything about this coach besides that he’s a career legend. But does anyone know why Johnsensing left Florida in Rupp? I believe it was his only team left. He was there for 90 seasons basically. No goodbye. No chat in the conference. Just thought it was odd after I took over the program and noticed how long he’d been there.

I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

Posted by gillispie on 11/1/2022 8:33:00 AM (view original):

Posted by npb7768 on 10/31/2022 11:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie on 10/31/2022 10:25:00 PM (view original):
happy halloween folks! perfect time for a witch hunt i suppose :) very glad to see CS taking the time to figure out who else was involved and to handle this thoroughly.

Not sure it's really a "witch hunt" when one guy has been ID'ed by HD Admin and we've been told others are involved, and no other humans have been named.

I mean, this is like in Goodfellas when Jimmy Conway held up Lufthansa, and Carbone bought his girlfriend a mink coat and another guy (Swenske) bought a pink Cadillac.

didn't mean it like that, just a dumb halloween reference. also, i think someone said it earlier with some sarcasm (the witch hunt).

i am very glad CS is taking this seriously, that is just as important to me as it is to you. i view anti-cheating efforts as more of a marathon than a sprint, but that doesn't mean it is any less important to me. if anything, more.

No worries my friend!

Posted by topdogggbm on 11/1/2022 9:07:00 AM (view original):
While we’re talking about who else might be involved, I’m NOT accusing because I don’t know anything about this coach besides that he’s a career legend. But does anyone know why Johnsensing left Florida in Rupp? I believe it was his only team left. He was there for 90 seasons basically. No goodbye. No chat in the conference. Just thought it was odd after I took over the program and noticed how long he’d been there.

Got frustrated with 3.0 recruiting and phased out all his teams is my uninformed understanding

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

From the general fair play guidelines for the site, cheating is defined as follows with potential consequences: All owners must play by the rules and requirements set forth by each game on our site. If an owner discovers a loophole, a way to cheat, or any other method of giving himself an unfair advantage, WhatIfSports reserves the right to take the necessary steps to correct the issue at any time without prior notification. Refunds or roster changes will not be given to any owner in this situation.

I think this general rule gives the site operators (and community at large), a great deal of latitude to determine what constitutes cheating and a sliding scale for consequences. I don’t think anyone is making pronouncements with very little knowledge of what happened. Everyone, including the site operators, is processing this situation with less than full knowledge. The consensus view of those who have spoken see this as blatant cheating. I think the logic is sound to this end:
1. Recruiting is designed to limit resources by way of cash and APs (yes, the senior redshirt trick circumvents that limit, but only by one spot).
2. The result from the current issue appears to give near unlimited APs.
3. This loophole is clearly different from the finite addition to resources through the senior redshirt.

Should we go hard against those who use it? I think without question. The fact that none of us can know the exact mechanics to utilize the scheme tells us that this is a design flaw, not a purposed benefit to be unlocked by those in the know.

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

yes doogan, i know. nobody was killed or raped, i get that. but we pay money to play this game. that these guys were using the loophole to get an unfair advantage is what is relevant right now. they don't need to go to jail or anything. i don't wish them any ill will. but i don't want to see them here anymore either. i'm sorry you disagree, and it's ok we disagree, but i'm right :)

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

From the general fair play guidelines for the site, cheating is defined as follows with potential consequences: All owners must play by the rules and requirements set forth by each game on our site. If an owner discovers a loophole, a way to cheat, or any other method of giving himself an unfair advantage, WhatIfSports reserves the right to take the necessary steps to correct the issue at any time without prior notification. Refunds or roster changes will not be given to any owner in this situation.

I think this general rule gives the site operators (and community at large), a great deal of latitude to determine what constitutes cheating and a sliding scale for consequences. I don’t think anyone is making pronouncements with very little knowledge of what happened. Everyone, including the site operators, is processing this situation with less than full knowledge. The consensus view of those who have spoken see this as blatant cheating. I think the logic is sound to this end:
1. Recruiting is designed to limit resources by way of cash and APs (yes, the senior redshirt trick circumvents that limit, but only by one spot).
2. The result from the current issue appears to give near unlimited APs.
3. This loophole is clearly different from the finite addition to resources through the senior redshirt.

Should we go hard against those who use it? I think without question. The fact that none of us can know the exact mechanics to utilize the scheme tells us that this is a design flaw, not a purposed benefit to be unlocked by those in the know.

I'm sure you will know the exact mechanics in time. I'm not going to say it now for the same reason others have stated. They should be given time to address it/close the loophole since they've decided it is not meant to be in the game. The consensus view sees it as blatant cheating. How many of them know exactly what happened? What I'm saying is you should reserve judgment until you know. I assure you it does not offer anything remotely close to unlimited APs. The advantage offered is probably in the realm of the senior redshirt. Should everyone who's redshirted a senior get banned? Honestly I could argue that the redshirting a senior for extra APs is more of a loophole than this. As I said in my original post, I could make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game and it actually makes sense that you get recruiting effort for it. Also, again, it was brought to the attention of CS years ago. Does that sound like something a blatant cheater would do?

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

good post favre

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by favre3xmvp on 11/1/2022 10:31:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 10:27:00 AM (view original):

Posted by gigrant on 11/1/2022 10:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by doogan on 11/1/2022 9:08:00 AM (view original):
I've talked to one of the guys who was banned. In my opinion, what he did is not cheating. I can see why it would be seen as something that shouldn't be possible or a loophole, but could also make the argument that it was designed to be part of the game. In fact, he asked CS about it a few years ago and they confirmed it would provide recruiting effort and did not say it was something he should not do or at all imply that it was something that went against Fair Play guidelines. I saw shoe mention the redshirting a senior thing. That's a loophole. What these guys did is a similar loophole, at worst. I'd just suggest that you hold off on making pronouncements about bans or punishments when you have very little knowledge of what happened.

respectfully, i don't agree at all. i've been here a long time, and i'm really tired of people acting outside the spirit of the game. these guys had an unfair advantage, so they were basically stealing money from the rest of us. with all of the frustration already at hand with the recruiting process, this issue was about to start an exodus of coaches who were already on the fence. you see the above post about the FL coach leaving. i know several other long-time vets who are packing their things as we speak. and many already have. HD has been in a bad spot for at least 2 years now and the timing of this scandal couldn't be worse. perhaps that is why CS got aggressive for once.

i hope the cheaters are forced to start new accts so that they can't get to D1 and compete before there's a fix.

Do you know what it was that these users did?

This should not matter. What we know is the impact it had on the game and it was a negative one for those recruiting against them, unfairly so.

It shouldn't matter what they did? We'll have to disagree on that one. How do you know it was unfair when you don't know what happened?

It provided an advantage that was not part of the game and those using it knew it. We need not know more. And that is why I discount the mechanics being revealed too. We know the result. These coaches were able to unlock additional recruiting options faster by using this exploit.

By the way, the senior redshirt results in 20 APs per cycle. This is no where near only 20 if someone can make 2 dozen scholarship offers by day 2 of recruiting. We are comparing apples and orangutans. (And yes, for those challenged in the realm of humor, I intentionally did not say, “oranges”.)