Posted by mpbthb on 3/13/2021 6:17:00 PM (view original):
Ditching the AAA players was just bad. It is hard for me to refer to it as a mistake, because it was deliberate, thought out, and carefully planned. But, the administration can do whatever they want to do. I can decide only whether or no to keep buying teams. I haven't bought any so far, but I have no doubt that the influx of Newbies has more than made up for that.

There's a base of hardcore players, many of whom live on these forums, who likely spend little because they have the winning formula in place. But because of their tenure and "expertise" for having won so much, they have a large voice on matters like this. To think this move will suddenly bring in a new group of newbies to get slaughtered in OLs vs guys like Itlayprof who are suddenly going to start playing OLs all the time in order to take all the new kids' lunch money is somewhat funny. No offense to Italyprof, but the guy is SLB beast and will eat OLs for breakfast. Because the underlying formula for winning is still the same, and the one variable aspect has now been removed, thus making the formula even easier to implement.

To think this is going to make newbies more competitive with HOFers in OLs is ridiculous. But hey, it'll give the HOFers a new toy to play with for a little bit.

The marketing slogan should be great, though:
"Come play WIS/SLB! We've taken away a fun feature and made it where your roster will be even more watered down with career .250 hitters you've never heard of outside of Moneyball!"

The problem isn't AAA plyers; the problem is a lack of understanding of this game. Add a 5 minute tutorial video and watch newbies perform better, thereby having have more fun.

the problem is a lack of understanding of this game.

That’s pretty much what everyone has said over the last dozen pages here and the two other threads covering this.

However, AAA players exacerbate this issue and gives those with knowledge another area to gain an additional leg up on the newer owners. This move reduces that knowledge gap and creates a more balanced competitive arena.

For those that want the random aspect or the additional strategies AAA can provide, those options are still available in theme and champs leagues.

This reduces the skill gap new owners have to face in their first leagues. This is a good move for new owners as it reduces the ease with which experienced owners can use their sim-knowledge to gain an advantage.

Posted by contrarian23 on 3/14/2021 4:31:00 PM (view original):
I continue to believe that if this situation were reversed...i.e. if no-AAA had been the long-time norm...and admin floated the idea of adding AAA to OLs, absolutely no one would be in favor of it. It is ridiculous to think that having AAA is what attracts and keeps newbies to this game. And it is a downright fallacy to think that having AAA somehow makes the playing field more level. This is a long-overdue change.

As I previously said, I agree, the removal won't likely impact the retention of newbies (they'll leave just as fast now as they did before). However, learning to budget for AAA players is no more unbalanced than the randomness of player performance. The biggest problem I saw with AAAs (outside of the lack of information and instruction on how they work), is unscrupulous veteran players making shady trades with newbies.

In the end, this isn't a deal breaker, but I prefer having them. There is no right or wrong answer to the question of which experience is more fun for a given customer (for me, it's more fun having them). And "leveling the playing field" (nice pun btw) isn't necessarily a great long-term solution. It's a downright fallacy to think that removing AAAs won't make OLs all the more bland and formulaic. (just kidding around, not trying to be offensive)

All my comments aside, I am very glad Adam is working on new things here. I've been away for a year or two because the game was stale and the snark on the forum can be pretty toxic. The intellectual elitism of some posters makes interacting with the community a very negative experience at times unless.

I like this guy, aka the few self-proclaimed minority lofty perchers speaking their sometimes truths but mostly personal opinion on behalf of the new majority of today's owner, and woe be to the feather ruffler.

Also above, +1 again with or without AAA has nothing to do with bringing in newbs. However, it certainly has left bad taste on those who are gone and still remain of vet manipulative trades. This was my single biggest issue of AAA on behalf of the unawares and in defense of those already gone. I'm not losing sleep that AAA is gone, only in it's sloppy implementation reasoning. Bad AAA trades could've simply been dealt with by limiting or removing their involvement in trades, not AAA in its entirety. Again, not horribly mad at its removal, but will welcome them back with non or limited trade re-implementation.

maybe a simpler idea would be to let all rosters be unlimited in number



so it's still a baseball sim but not a MLB sim

To add to my thoughts, between the dynamic pricing increases that happened a few years ago and the elimination of AAA, I believe OLs are now essentially low-cap leagues similar to those we used to play several years back. In perusing the forum for knowledge on low-cap strategy, I found a post by contrarian23 that essentially said EXACTLY the same thing about pre-dynamic-pricing low-cap leagues as what I'm saying is coming with OLs:

"But what I have observed is that low caps tend to have less diversity of strategies, and less diversity of "value" players than 80-100M caps. For all the complaints about cookie-riddled OLs, I've found that you can win with many many different kinds of teams. I never use 1908 Joss in OLs and I do just fine. I've won with speed teams and power teams, with deadball pitchers and modern pitchers, with high range teams (150 or more plus plays) and with teams with a whole bunch of guys like Bip, HoJo and Boggs who make tons of minus plays. I've won with switchhitters and with platoons. I've won with A+ arm catchers and with Victor Martinez's D- arm. I've won in the Astrodome and I've won in Hilltop and Coors. Yes, you see a lot of owners just running the same team out there again and again - and the standard cookie team is almost guaranteed to do well - but there are certainly other ways to win at 80-100M. Part of the fun of OLs for me is that I try something different almost every time, and I'm usually pretty competitive.

In contrast, at 60M I tend to see pretty much the same strategy win over and over again..."

https://www.whatifsports.com/forums/Posts.aspx?topicID=477039&threadID=10460717#l_10460717

The elimination of AAA coupled with dynamic salary increases cuts way back on the ability to try something different almost every time and still be competitive.

Posted by just4me on 3/15/2021 6:08:00 PM (view original):
For what it's worth I would've disagreed with contrarian then on the $60m strategy, and for proof now, I'd refer you to the recurring $40m leagues that have blacklists, exclusive players, and vastly different strategies from season to season...

And OLs still see a wide variety of winning strategies... I recently won 110+ with a HR team in Coors and again with a team built around part-time players with Jose Oquendo and Ezra Sutton backing up all of them, had a winning record with a team that had an $8m pitching staff, etc... there's lots of ways to win an OL. That doesn't mean that the old dynamic pricing setup didn't skew salaries a bit, but all that did was price out players who are good at high caps, not alter functional strategies. Same variation in strategies in play, just different players.

The elimination of AAA, would actually open the ability to try new things because there's no reason to draft to optimize the use of AAA, now you can draft platoons or deep benches, or PH, or pinch runners, etc... The players least affected by dynamic prices (those with between 350-550 PA) now become very useable and are relative bargains because their prices weren't pushed up by those maximizing AAA value. This will certainly shake things up and absolutely will increase the ability to win with multiple variations of team-building strategies.

I mean, shoot, the first non-AAA league is only 2 games in. Let's not start pontificating too much on how detrimental it is until at least a few seasons are behind us.

These are simple strategies that will make newbies more competitive?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I'm not sure I follow. Do you really think dynamic pricing didn't alter functional strategies? Or that taking away the AAAs' 1200 PAs is going to make it easier to draft different types of approaches?

Don't get me wrong- I'm working on an OL team now to try out the no-AAA format. Something new is fun, too. Again, not trying to be argumentative, but I think we need to be objective about the predictable results of this change. There's no way taking away 1200 PA gives us MORE flexibility.

I think we should be careful to not confuse one seismic shift in strategy with increased, ongoing flexibility in drafting winning OL approaches

There's no way taking away 1200 PA gives us MORE flexibility.

It gives significantly more flexibility in draft strategy and draft flexibility because you no longer have to optimize to use those PA.

These are simple strategies that will make newbies more competitive?

The strategies I outlined aren't "simple" but they're certainly common and more intuitive for new owners not familiar with the ins and outs of the sim. How many new owners you think are trying to stuff a bunch of $200k scrubs into their bench to steal some cheap PA out of AAA? Most are drafting teams in what they consider a realistic manner, which includes platoons, pinch hitters, defensive backups, pinch runners, etc... this change actually makes those decisions viable, so in a small way will help new owners be more competitive right out the gate.

Do you really think dynamic pricing didn't alter functional strategies?

100%, didn't change strategies at all, just the players that occupy those strategies... Carey replaced Speaker/Douthit/Ashburn, Marte/Ramirez replaced Hojo, Walsh replaced Joss, etc... Teams built around speed, AVG, and range with pitching staffs built around HR suppression... but both prior and post dynamic pricing, any strategy well-executed is still workable and competitive. Those are just simple ways to not lose a ton, though there are many ways to win.

I think we should be careful to not confuse one seismic shift in strategy with increased, ongoing flexibility in drafting winning OL approaches

This is a minor shift over all, but will absolutely create more roster flexibility in creating winning OL teams that fit within numerous existing strategies. Gives significantly more player options in roster construction to achieve the same goals and strategies.

Posted by just4me on 3/15/2021 6:08:00 PM (view original):
For what it's worth I would've disagreed with contrarian then on the $60m strategy, and for proof now, I'd refer you to the recurring $40m leagues that have blacklists, exclusive players, and vastly different strategies from season to season...

And OLs still see a wide variety of winning strategies... I recently won 110+ with a HR team in Coors and again with a team built around part-time players with Jose Oquendo and Ezra Sutton backing up all of them, had a winning record with a team that had an $8m pitching staff, etc... there's lots of ways to win an OL. That doesn't mean that the old dynamic pricing setup didn't skew salaries a bit, but all that did was price out players who are good at high caps, not alter functional strategies. Same variation in strategies in play, just different players.

The elimination of AAA, would actually open the ability to try new things because there's no reason to draft to optimize the use of AAA, now you can draft platoons or deep benches, or PH, or pinch runners, etc... The players least affected by dynamic prices (those with between 350-550 PA) now become very useable and are relative bargains because their prices weren't pushed up by those maximizing AAA value. This will certainly shake things up and absolutely will increase the ability to win with multiple variations of team-building strategies.

I mean, shoot, the first non-AAA league is only 2 games in. Let's not start pontificating too much on how detrimental it is until at least a few seasons are behind us.

What he said.

i'm in a progressive we're at 1994 right now

there are guys on my bench who have been played zero, one, or two times in the history of the sim

now maybe the site has bad memory

or maybe it's better to jettison AAA so real life guys who played could get used

--would have to get used

I'd refer you to the recurring $40m leagues that have blacklists, exclusive players, and vastly different strategies from season to season...

Generally blacklists are created to keep people from drafting cookies. Which, again, goes to my point- there are cookies in low cap leagues (and no one yet has disagreed that dynamic pricing and removal of AAA moves OLs markedly toward being a low cap league). And these settings, like blacklists and exclusive players, are designed for the very purpose of pushing people into the fun of using different strategies, which is tremendous fun, but those limitations and designations won't be be present in OLs to force diverse approaches.

Again, it's all good. There will be some different approaches tried in the beginning until a few cookie teams are established to maximize a few basic winning formulas. I don't mean to be contrary. I'm just still not sold on how taking away 1200 PAs provides greater overall strategy flexibility in the long term. I mean, any diverse approach you could draft without AAA could have been drafted last week as well. There's no change in slots, cap, or player pool. You just have less PA cushion with which to draft players that more extremely serve your strategy.

Are non-AAA OLs suddenly going to become immune to high #OBP guys, or deadball era pitchers, or switch-hitters, or high % SB speedsters, etc.? Of course not.

Are non-AAA OLs suddenly going to become immune to high #OBP guys, or deadball era pitchers, or switch-hitters, or high % SB speedsters, etc.? Of course not.

No, but that isn't/wasn't the goal behind removing AAA. And I don't think anyone has made an argument that this would be the case.

As for the rest, I don't disagree in terms of cookies in low caps, but it also doesn't address the point I was making, nor do I see the relevance to my point, as such things also exist in wide and narrow player pools. My point was that low cap leagues see just as much variation in league types and draft strategies as open and high cap leagues.

I do somewhat disagree on the effect of dynamic pricing and AAA turning OL into low cap leagues. Dynamic pricing didn't get people to start drafting guys who would have never been competitively useable in OL (1899 Frank Bates) that are useable in low caps. It shifted use of a minority of players who seemed to be relative bargains to players whose pricing is still the same. Look at 1889 Lou Bierbauer. Prior to dynamic pricing he had zero uses. Now he has 30+ Bierbauer isn't a low cap player, he's perfectly suited for the OL level. You're still drafting for $80m with $80m and filling it with players whose salaries are and always have been players suited for $80m. It just priced that minority of players up and out of reach for most OL teams because they could also be viable in higher cap leagues where the player pool is more limited. AAA doesn't have an impact on drafting for the league in terms of cap value. I've gone over the value breakdown in depth in another thread related to AAA trading and again in a thread related to OL Salary Cap.