Derek Jeter's Last Stand - Page 13 - MLB

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

Uh, read the thread. A-Rod outgrew SS about two years into his time with the Yankees. Move Jeter back at that point? Or play the Jayson Nixs of the world there? Yankees won a lot of games with Jeter at SS. No "dumbass Yankee fan" is going on about how well he played SS. We're just saying "What was the alternative once A-Rod decided that hitting homers was more fun than playing D?" So far, there has been no answer. As mentioned, the time when the Yanks could start FA and say "Yeah, we're getting these three guys" is nothing but a distant memory. So, smart guy, what was the alternative?

2/18/2014 3:48 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

To make it more clear, successful teams don't build their roster for one-two seasons. They're looking into the future. It was obvious that A-Rod was built more like Ripken than Ozzie Smith. Where did that project him to be when his contract was due to run out? It wasn't SS. So they had this other guy at SS, who was built more like a middle infielder, also under contract. They actually won a few games with said guy at SS. Why would you move that guy for the other guy when you knew the other guy wasn't long for SS?

As evidenced, they haven't had a guy in the minors who could play SS.

2/18/2014 3:58 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

I'll add one more thing. A-Rod has proven to have a fragile psyche. He has never been a fan favorite. He would have been replacing a fan favorite at SS. Yanks don't win and/or A-Rod doesn't play well in the media shitstorm we call New York. WTF do you think happens?

2/18/2014 4:02 PM

dahsdebater

Posts: 10047 (1)

Hall of Famer

284 293 18

Pro

No "dumbass Yankee fan" is going on about how well he played SS.

Maybe in this thread, but plenty have done that. Literally millions of them I'm sure.

2/18/2014 4:10 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

Truth is, winning makes people ignore the warts. He hit the ball, played SS adequately and the Yankees won. So, yes, you'd have been hard-pressed to find a Yankee fan clamoring to move him to LF. Remove the winning and only the fringe defends his defense.

So, if you want to classify "dumbass Yankee fans", maybe we should talk about "dumbass Oriole fans" declaring Larry Bigbie as the next 40/40 guy or Melvin Mora as the next .400 hitter.

That said, what's the answer? Move Jeter to LF when A-Rod arrives. Maybe it works, maybe it fails miserably. Either way, A-Rod "outgrows" SS in a couple of years. What's the solution now?

2/18/2014 4:20 PM

dahsdebater

Posts: 10047 (1)

Hall of Famer

284 293 18

Pro

Sign Julio Lugo in 2006? Or Furcal or Cabrera in 2008?

2/18/2014 5:09 PM

dahsdebater

Posts: 10047 (1)

Hall of Famer

284 293 18

Pro

So, if you want to classify "dumbass Yankee fans", maybe we should talk about "dumbass Oriole fans" declaring Larry Bigbie as the next 40/40 guy or Melvin Mora as the next .400 hitter.

I don't think the numbers arguing those statements are nearly on par as the number of NY fans slobbering over Jeter and vehemently denying his obvious weaknesses. I'm not saying you're one of them - you're perfectly up-front about his defensive shortcomings, and I have no problem with your stance whatsoever. I don't necessarily disagree all that strongly with what you're saying. It's more like dumbass Orioles fans who won't stop talking about how great Cal was. Already been discussed a lot in this thread - the dude was really great for a SS, but playing every day instead of 155 or 160 games a season isn't necessarily doing much extra for the team. 3000 hits and 400 HRs primarily as a SS make him one of the better players ever at his position. But way too many O's fans think he's one of the best players in the sport's history. That's a crock of ****. Career OPS+ of 112. Good player, clear-cut first-ballot HOFer. Like Jeter, a great team guy. Any player of that caliber and with that much respect/adoration from the fans is going to wind up with some ego. But they have both always been team-first. Neither as good as their respective teams' fan bases seem to think.

2/18/2014 5:15 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

Posted by dahsdebater on 2/18/2014 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Sign Julio Lugo in 2006? Or Furcal or Cabrera in 2008?

Any indication that any of them would have been interested? NY stopped be a destination a long time ago. Make almost as much without all the extra hassle.

2/18/2014 6:24 PM

tecwrg

Posts: 18997 (0)

Hall of Famer

4 1 166 32 129

Prospect

You know who played the game "the right way" on the Orioles?

Billy Ripken.

When his manager told him "Bill, you're not in the lineup today, for the good of the team", he'd say "Yes sir!" and sit his *** down on the bench.

2/18/2014 6:36 PM

dahsdebater

Posts: 10047 (1)

Hall of Famer

284 293 18

Pro

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/18/2014 6:24:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dahsdebater on 2/18/2014 5:09:00 PM (view original):
Sign Julio Lugo in 2006? Or Furcal or Cabrera in 2008?
Any indication that any of them would have been interested? NY stopped be a destination a long time ago. Make almost as much without all the extra hassle.

You really think all those guys would turn down Yankee money? I doubt it. Renteria was also a FA around that time, though he would have been up there with Lugo as the bad signing of the bunch... Old Vizquel would have been an option too. It's not like there were never any SS's available on the market. It's really just a question of whether you'd be willing to sacrifice some offense to go from a very poor glove to an average or above-average glove. I would think at SS most teams would do that, but maybe given the depth the Yankees lineup had at that time it made less sense for them than most. I hear the completely wrong argument on this all the time. "That team has a lot of depth in the lineup, they can afford to take a glove-only guy at (SS/CF/C/2B)." Makes the opposite of sense, particularly in the AL. If 8 guys in the lineup can hit, are on base a decent amount of the time, and can drive in some guys, having a guy who ISN'T driving them in and getting on base for them is expensive. If you've already got one or two guys who can't really hit making a dead spot in the lineup, adding one more guy to that may have a much lower marginal cost. I guess the risk is that you work yourself into a position where you're scoring so few runs you don't think you can win, but the actual run cost is much lower for that already-flawed lineup than the otherwise great one. So at the end of the day, maybe Jeter was the best option for the Yankees at SS, but I still tend to doubt it. I think Furcal in particular would have been great in pinstripes, as much as I'm glad I never got to find out.

2/18/2014 6:54 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

I honestly don't know.    The Boss "officially" stepped away in 2006-2007.    For a couple years prior to that, Cashman was offering the contracts.   So "Yankee Money" was a little different in the mid-2000s.   It seemed to me that they had to offer an extra year and some extra dough to get the top FA.   Cashman seemed reluctant to do that.   They just weren't getting who we(meaning Yankee fans) thought they'd get.    I think a smart guy looks at the situation and says "****. A-Rod followed Jeter and I'm supposed to follow A-Rod?" if he can get ballpark money from the Dodgers or Angels or pretty much any team not in Boston, NY or Philly.   Some guys just aren't built for that sort of scrutiny. Particularly following, and still playing with, two HOF-caliber players.

For revisionist history, A-Rod comes to Yanks and Jeter moves to LF.   A-Rod doesn't gain weight and become a non-SS by 2007.   They're still where they are right now.   Jeter is a bit of a handicap at SS or A-Rod hasn't been effective for 3 years.

Honestly, they've missed the playoffs once with Jeter as the full-time SS and win 5 WS.  It's hard to complain about that or, IMO, say "They'd have been better if -insert name- had played SS with Jeter in LF."

2/18/2014 7:16 PM

dahsdebater

Posts: 10047 (1)

Hall of Famer

284 293 18

Pro

That's a terrible argument, particularly when you're talking about a team that has had the highest payroll in baseball all but 2 or 3 seasons of Jeter's career. It's not like the rest of the team wasn't talented, and you can't just look at one guy in a vacuum and say "Well, it worked with that guy in there, so why move him." In both 1973 and 1974 the A's won the WS with Ray Fosse doing the biggest share of the catching and Dick Green seeing the most time at 2B. Does that mean they shouldn't have made changes in those positions, despite the fact that those guys couldn't hit their weight by the end of '74? Of course not, and they did change them, and they went on to win more games in '75 than they had in any of their 3 WS seasons, although they did lose in the playoffs. And all of that was basically irrelevant, because those guys weren't critical to their team's success. Jeter was more important to what the Yankees did, but with maybe 1 exception that value was virtually all tied up in what he did with the bat. It wasn't about his fielding. I don't think the argument that "what we're doing works" is even remotely synonymous with "what we're doing is ideal." Since you brought him up, it's worth pointing out that "this works well enough" would have resonated very poorly indeed with The Boss, and honestly if he weren't so in love with Jeter he probably would have wanted to move him to the outfield and bring in a better-fielding SS himself...

2/18/2014 8:14 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

I think that's where you're wrong.    Of course you look to make improvements. But you don't do it by moving your BEST players to a new position.   You get rid of Fosse and Green because they can't hit their weight.   And everyone says, if it doesn't work, "Well, ****, they couldn't hit their weight".   You move your franchise player to LF, lose and everyone says "What the **** was that about?"    You have emotion, ego, continuity, chemistry, pride and any number of other things that aren't in play when looking at a bunch of stats. Upsetting the apple cart, if you will. IMO, the baseball world would have said "Damn, if they'll do that to Jeter, how would they treat me?"     And no big name FA would ever come to NY.

As for fielding vs. bat, of course that's what it's about.   What you lost in the field, you more than made up with the bat.   We're not talking about Greg Luzinski playing SS.   Jeter was slightly below average.   He wasn't a butcher with a stone glove.   He made the plays that he could get to.   Personally, I always felt he was out of position way too much.   Maybe he was cheating to help his lack of range or maybe they had him cheating in an attempt to cover his lack of range. Either way, he was kicking routine balls.

At the end of the day, people who know more baseball than you and I said "We can work with that."   And they won.   A lot.   The results are what they are.

2/18/2014 8:30 PM

dahsdebater

Posts: 10047 (1)

Hall of Famer

284 293 18

Pro

As for fielding vs. bat, of course that's what it's about. What you lost in the field, you more than made up with the bat. We're not talking about Greg Luzinski playing SS. Jeter was slightly below average. He wasn't a butcher with a stone glove. He made the plays that he could get to. Personally, I always felt he was out of position way too much. Maybe he was cheating to help his lack of range or maybe they had him cheating in an attempt to cover his lack of range. Either way, he was kicking routine balls.

For most of his career he was one of the worst 5 fielding shortstops in baseball, per all the advanced metrics. That's pretty damn bad, given that the guys below him tended to change significantly from year to year based on a general inability to stick at SS, if in the majors at all, with their crap gloves.

2/18/2014 9:03 PM

MikeT23

Posts: 58012 (0)

Hall of Famer

87 1 47 1 189

Prospect

As an example, Reggie wasn't very good in RF. The A's didn't say "Hey, Reggie will DH and play some first!!! We'll find a better rightfielder!!!! Hell, Jesus Alou is better in the OF than Reggie!!!!!"

2/18/2014 9:13 PM

Forums

Derek Jeter's Last Stand Topic

Search Criteria