God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

I actually agree with this for the most part.
Your first two sentences are contradictory, but your overall point is valid.

Of course, none of this is applicable to Dino, because he doesn't hold the Tanakh in very high regard.

But yes, concerning Orthodox Jews I feel similarly.

I also want to take a look back at a portion of one of your responses. You said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "it needn't be restricted to someone on a deserted island" and went on to describe an African woman recognizing the Glory of creation.

---

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 1:13:00 AM (view original):

God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

I actually agree with this for the most part.
Your first two sentence are contradictory, but your overall point is valid.

Of course, none of this is applicable to Dino, because he doesn't hold the Tanakh in very high regard.

But yes, concerning Orthodox Jews I feel similarly.

to say that i don’t believe something is the word DOES NOT mean that i don’t hold my heritages books in high regard.
You are thinking in a box.

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 11:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/15/2022 10:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 7/15/2022 10:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/15/2022 5:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Hi I'm dino watch me pout and put words in ppls mouth cuz I'm 12 and that's how I roll :

Quote post by Jetson21 on 7/15/2022 4:38:00 PM: and calling me a dirty jew

Not even close in actuality or intent or sentiment. But it's what you wanted to see and I resent the insinuation. You've been run outta here multiple times for less. Don't think it can't happen again.

“ be a jew”
and you have said over and over that I am going to hell.
You dare speak for Jesus and God?

You are the exact evil that you project upon others.
I actually live a moral and ethical and loving life with and give the shirt off my back to helping people,
being very generous to my friends and respecting people and having friends of every race and religion and sexual orientation and identity.
My favorite charity is Saint Jude’s Hospital started by Danny Thomas.

Except when I am protecting myself from your instigating personal attacks and threats that I will go to hell i never think about religion.
Sometines I think about God.

The real Jesus would vomit if he found out that some christians think that Jews and others are going to hell because they don’t think he is the son of God either by God sperm or adoption.
He would be sickened by someone like you.

You sure do make me want to puke.
I am related to Jesus btw - you - not so much.

Related to Jesus??

You are NOT related to Jesus because you have never truly trusted him or believed on him. There is still hope, though.

He's biologically related through his Jewish ancestry.

Blood doesn't make you a chosen one and give you a pass anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car. I'll also use this opp to disagree with the contention that most others faiths get a pass in finding the gospels absurd. In some cases perhaps, but I don't see how that's true of the Jews. God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that a biological relation was sufficient for salvation.

It is apples and oranges. I was simply clarifying the accurate point Dino was making.

I also do not contend that anyone gets a pass for anything. I simply understand why many do find it absurd. I try to use that understanding to find common ground and develop a relationship that promotes open and honest dialogue.

EDITED TO ADD:

I believe that belittling someone else's faith and speaking to them in a manner that reeks of arrogance and superiority is not useful in any way.

I would argue it only drives a wedge even further making meaningful dialogue impossible.

arrogant guy - he was jewish. he was not a christian.
so during his life and my life we are of the same heritage.

Don’t let that raise your ire.

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 11:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/15/2022 10:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 7/15/2022 10:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/15/2022 5:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Hi I'm dino watch me pout and put words in ppls mouth cuz I'm 12 and that's how I roll :

Quote post by Jetson21 on 7/15/2022 4:38:00 PM: and calling me a dirty jew

Not even close in actuality or intent or sentiment. But it's what you wanted to see and I resent the insinuation. You've been run outta here multiple times for less. Don't think it can't happen again.

“ be a jew”
and you have said over and over that I am going to hell.
You dare speak for Jesus and God?

You are the exact evil that you project upon others.
I actually live a moral and ethical and loving life with and give the shirt off my back to helping people,
being very generous to my friends and respecting people and having friends of every race and religion and sexual orientation and identity.
My favorite charity is Saint Jude’s Hospital started by Danny Thomas.

Except when I am protecting myself from your instigating personal attacks and threats that I will go to hell i never think about religion.
Sometines I think about God.

The real Jesus would vomit if he found out that some christians think that Jews and others are going to hell because they don’t think he is the son of God either by God sperm or adoption.
He would be sickened by someone like you.

You sure do make me want to puke.
I am related to Jesus btw - you - not so much.

Related to Jesus??

You are NOT related to Jesus because you have never truly trusted him or believed on him. There is still hope, though.

He's biologically related through his Jewish ancestry.

Blood doesn't make you a chosen one and give you a pass anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car. I'll also use this opp to disagree with the contention that most others faiths get a pass in finding the gospels absurd. In some cases perhaps, but I don't see how that's true of the Jews. God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that a biological relation was sufficient for salvation.

It is apples and oranges. I was simply clarifying the accurate point Dino was making.

I also do not contend that anyone gets a pass for anything. I simply understand why many do find it absurd. I try to use that understanding to find common ground and develop a relationship that promotes open and honest dialogue.

EDITED TO ADD:

I believe that belittling someone else's faith and speaking to them in a manner that reeks of arrogance and superiority is not useful in any way.

I would argue it only drives a wedge even further making meaningful dialogue impossible.

Me - I don’t belittle someone’s faith I belittle people that feel entitled to insist that I am going to hell because I have a different faith.

You will never find a jewish person do that.
We respect others until they disrespect us.

It is abnormal for someone to tell another they are going to hell because they have another religion.
It is immature and pernicious and inconsiderate and downright evil to shove that down someone’s throat with impunity.
When a person who does that understands it then they are on the road to damascus.

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/16/2022 3:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 1:13:00 AM (view original):

God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

I actually agree with this for the most part.
Your first two sentence are contradictory, but your overall point is valid.

Of course, none of this is applicable to Dino, because he doesn't hold the Tanakh in very high regard.

But yes, concerning Orthodox Jews I feel similarly.

to say that i don’t believe something is the word DOES NOT mean that i don’t hold my heritages books in high regard.
You are thinking in a box.

Would an argument persuade you if the only support was quoting a passage from the Tanakh?

Sure, you respect the Tanakh as part of your heritage, but you've repeated many times that you regard it as non literal and mostly fables and myths.

My wording could've been better I suppose.

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/16/2022 3:52:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 11:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/15/2022 10:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by lostnfound74 on 7/15/2022 10:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/15/2022 5:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/15/2022 5:07:00 PM (view original):
Hi I'm dino watch me pout and put words in ppls mouth cuz I'm 12 and that's how I roll :

Quote post by Jetson21 on 7/15/2022 4:38:00 PM: and calling me a dirty jew

Not even close in actuality or intent or sentiment. But it's what you wanted to see and I resent the insinuation. You've been run outta here multiple times for less. Don't think it can't happen again.

“ be a jew”
and you have said over and over that I am going to hell.
You dare speak for Jesus and God?

You are the exact evil that you project upon others.
I actually live a moral and ethical and loving life with and give the shirt off my back to helping people,
being very generous to my friends and respecting people and having friends of every race and religion and sexual orientation and identity.
My favorite charity is Saint Jude’s Hospital started by Danny Thomas.

Except when I am protecting myself from your instigating personal attacks and threats that I will go to hell i never think about religion.
Sometines I think about God.

The real Jesus would vomit if he found out that some christians think that Jews and others are going to hell because they don’t think he is the son of God either by God sperm or adoption.
He would be sickened by someone like you.

You sure do make me want to puke.
I am related to Jesus btw - you - not so much.

Related to Jesus??

You are NOT related to Jesus because you have never truly trusted him or believed on him. There is still hope, though.

He's biologically related through his Jewish ancestry.

Blood doesn't make you a chosen one and give you a pass anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car. I'll also use this opp to disagree with the contention that most others faiths get a pass in finding the gospels absurd. In some cases perhaps, but I don't see how that's true of the Jews. God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

To be clear, I didn't mean to imply that a biological relation was sufficient for salvation.

It is apples and oranges. I was simply clarifying the accurate point Dino was making.

I also do not contend that anyone gets a pass for anything. I simply understand why many do find it absurd. I try to use that understanding to find common ground and develop a relationship that promotes open and honest dialogue.

EDITED TO ADD:

I believe that belittling someone else's faith and speaking to them in a manner that reeks of arrogance and superiority is not useful in any way.

I would argue it only drives a wedge even further making meaningful dialogue impossible.

Me - I don’t belittle someone’s faith I belittle people that feel entitled to insist that I am going to hell because I have a different faith.

You will never find a jewish person do that.
We respect others until they disrespect us.

In my experience Orthodox Jews are perhaps the only folks I've had these types of discussions with who are even more smug and condescending than Evangelical Christians.

I will concede that attitude is typically a reaction to some Evangelical trying to persuade the Orthodox Jew that he has misunderstood passages written in the Tanakh.

So it's possibly much more justifiable to some degree.

So, do you folks believe that every word (story/fable) in The Bible is truth??
Every word Gods?

And if not, where do you get the hutzpah to declare your belief system the "correct" path and damn the rest of the non-believers and (other) believers alike to some "hell" as depicted in portions of the Bible?

I'm somewhat knowledgeable on this subject.
Tried to read the Bible straight thru once or twice. Couldn't succeed.
Too poorly written.

I really think a God could have done better.
And the full content of the Book, in its entirety is quite ridiculous. Silly even in some parts.
No doubt much of it was inspired.

Much of it, also, is fable. Some mans invention.
Likely meant to try and control others behavior. Particularly women!

IF'n you try and take the position that every word is Gods within The Bible...........then in my opinion you have some very difficult "splainin'" to do.

Last point.
To a Muslim. The Koran (sp?) is their Bible.
Does a Christian have the grace to consider that The Koran might be Gods word, too??
I certainly don't know any who do?

Why not?

Why do Christians think their God to be the ONE God, but other Faiths don't have the Spiritual purity to declare THEIR God the one God.
It should be obvious that EVERY Believer believes HIS/Her God to be the correct Creator and the proper point of worship.
It should also be obvious that us humans don't GET to KNOW or JUDGE other humans belief structures!!

The admonition within The Bible is quite clear. Much clearer than most of what you guys are arguing about!
Judge NOT, lest ye be judged.
What part of that do you NOT understand?

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 8:05:00 AM (view original):

Posted by Jetson21 on 7/16/2022 3:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 1:13:00 AM (view original):

God spoke directly to them. They may have been first called, but it was never exclusive.

First to the Jew, THEN to the gentile. It says so.

And in speaking to them first, how is there disconnect from that to prohesy all around them of the promised coming messiah, Christ ? I would put that right up there with the bible's claim of man has no excuse. It has always pointed to Christ, and some today steeped in heritage should know that better than others.

I actually agree with this for the most part.
Your first two sentence are contradictory, but your overall point is valid.

Of course, none of this is applicable to Dino, because he doesn't hold the Tanakh in very high regard.

But yes, concerning Orthodox Jews I feel similarly.

to say that i don’t believe something is the word DOES NOT mean that i don’t hold my heritages books in high regard.
You are thinking in a box.

Would an argument persuade you if the only support was quoting a passage from the Tanakh?

Sure, you respect the Tanakh as part of your heritage, but you've repeated many times that you regard it as non literal and mostly fables and myths.

My wording could've been better I suppose.

Yes but those who think of it as I which is the actual majority consider it - as inspired by the hope and desire to connect with God.

Religions evolve. The jewish religion which is 5000 years old went from orthodox to now 4 distinct subdivisions.

Islam continues to become a mostly tempered religion by those in non islamic countries and that will continue.

Even those that are fundamentalist in their faith the others turn a blind eye to what makes no sense or is even repugnant and modifies their beliefs according to the modern world.

So even orthodox jews are not going to stone people who stray.
And conservative jews are not going to punish gay people.

It requires this blind eye for the vindictive or harsh adherence to become ameliorated.

It happens with all religions that begin with a warrior God.

That is why I say we have the advantage of an extra 3000 years to evolve our civilization.

I cherry pick nothing.
Only point out that NOT all parts of the Bible appear to be literal truth.
Some portions are clearly false.
I don't feel any argument with that view is possible or legit.

Humans don't live to be 969 years old.
I'm kinda studly for as old as I am but believe me I ain't fathering any babies and I got a ways to go before I reach the age that Abraham supposedly fathered Isaac.

Pluswise, here's the BIG one. The most controversial opinion I hold on the Biblical story.

Immaculate Conception does NOT, can NOT, will NOT result in a human fetus/baby.

I can NOT believe in the VIRGIN Mary producing a child.
It's bunk.
Not physically possible.

Thus, it's a parable, but for what purpose?
Why explain the Birth of Christ that way?

That one, I certainly don't know, BUT, for me, it is pretty obvious that NOT all of the Bible is literal truth or ACTUAL History.
It's full of fables and parables.

Hardly anyone sane disagrees with that, do they?

Just going to put this out there because that tone, again, comes off as arrogant. As if they've been too lazy to come to understand the truth as you understand it. You don't seem to ever even consider they may have valid reasons to question or doubt.

The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is “almah,” and its inherent meaning is “young woman.” “Almah” can mean “virgin,” as young unmarried women in ancient Hebrew culture were assumed to be virgins. Again, though, the word does not necessarily imply virginity. “Almah” occurs seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis 24:43; Exodus 2:8; Psalm 68:25; Proverbs 30:19; Song of Solomon 1:3; 6:8; Isaiah 7:14). None of these instances demands the meaning “virgin,” but neither do they deny the possible meaning of “virgin.” There is no conclusive argument for “almah” in Isaiah 7:14 being either “young woman” or “virgin.” However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.” The Septuagint translators, 200+ years before the birth of Christ, and with no inherent belief in a “virgin birth,” translated “almah” in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin,” not “young woman.” This gives evidence that “virgin” is a possible, even likely, meaning of the term.

If someone could prove there was not a virgin birth, could they then say JESUS, son of Joseph and Mary, could not be GOD incarnate?

Posted by DougOut on 7/16/2022 4:21:00 PM (view original):
The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is “almah,” and its inherent meaning is “young woman.” “Almah” can mean “virgin,” as young unmarried women in ancient Hebrew culture were assumed to be virgins. Again, though, the word does not necessarily imply virginity. “Almah” occurs seven times in the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis 24:43; Exodus 2:8; Psalm 68:25; Proverbs 30:19; Song of Solomon 1:3; 6:8; Isaiah 7:14). None of these instances demands the meaning “virgin,” but neither do they deny the possible meaning of “virgin.” There is no conclusive argument for “almah” in Isaiah 7:14 being either “young woman” or “virgin.” However, it is interesting to note, that in the 3rd century B.C., when a panel of Hebrew scholars and Jewish rabbis began the process of translating the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek, they used the specific Greek word for virgin, “parthenos,” not the more generic Greek word for “young woman.” The Septuagint translators, 200+ years before the birth of Christ, and with no inherent belief in a “virgin birth,” translated “almah” in Isaiah 7:14 as “virgin,” not “young woman.” This gives evidence that “virgin” is a possible, even likely, meaning of the term.

If someone could prove there was not a virgin birth, could they then say JESUS, son of Joseph and Mary, could not be GOD incarnate?

Welcome to the discussion Doug.
I always enjoy your non meme posts so much (your memes are pretty good also).

I'm going to give this answer an A-, [:winking:] the only point deductions stemming from the fact that this homework assignment was Matt's, and secondly you failed to address the actual question.

Your last question is especially relevant and goes directly to the heart of mine. The answer to yours is an unequivocal yes.
This ambiguity has been a major stumbling block for Jews who are well versed in the Hebrew language.