Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 4:43:00 PM (view original):
Most OT translations include the ending "and shall call his name Immanuel", whose universally accepted translation is God with us

A) For what other purpose would one except Isaiah to be talking about ? Any random guy born to another translation of young woman ?

2) Did any of those others born to a 'young woman' have 'God with us' stamped on their birth certificate as their name ?

As to the tone I believe with the obvious single notable exception I've been very fair in the set-up of being respectful even while multiple times alluding to we're not gonna play the smokescreen deflection what about this what about that oh so none of it must be true game. Yet they come anyway. I'm not here to play forever poke holes thru it games. If you're more of a gentle soul than me about it, fine. But I've seen this too many times before and can label animosity and unbelief that's unlikely to change differentiated from an honest heartfelt hmmm I've been wondering about this can you please explain so I can better understand and perhaps come to a better informed decision for Christ.

Read his post again. There's little heartfelt and honest in the question much less opinions offered of dissent. I was very fair and polite in the buildup to most everything before that. I'm not going to continually do this be the meek one to those whose mind is already made up or pose their question as an attack. If this forum can't be one from some of approaching me with playing nice, then you get what you get. And if any use that as a bad Christian reflection to decide Jesus ain't for them, He was never gonna be for them anyway regardless of my input. They just wanted to have their say and try to make some already preconceived mind made up point.

I've seen Bob be belligerent in several posts in other threads and to a lesser degree a couple of times in this one, but this last post of his seems pretty sincere to me. He offered some pretty reasonable examples of verses he finds trouble accepting as factual. These are common examples that folks take issue with.

I get there's a lot of history between many of the posters in this thread that I am not privy to, so I will not judge too harshly.

The answer to your 1st question may be found immediately following the lone verse you quote.
Let's take a look:

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,

16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

I'm sorry for butting in.

Thank you for for your kind response.

I should make clear before I go, I am a believer Christ Jesus is God in the flesh sent by YEHWEH. I subscribe to the Trinity of Father-Son-Holy Spirit. Nothing can shake my belief, even persecution, because of the overwhelming proof in scripture, prophecy and the sciences which are in perfect harmony. Beyond that there is my personal experience of the Holy Baptism of the Spirit and a very intimate meeting with the Creator on an Island half way around the world almost 50 years ago. I know very up front and in your face personal that God exists. I should be dead now several times over. I have escaped and been delivered from perils and ordeals at the last minute for no apparent reason, over and over again. I don't believe in miracles. I partake in them by the will of God at his pleasure and for His Glory.

I understand all about the stumbling blocks for Jews. It has been well documented in both Old and New Testaments. The Holy scripture has devoted much time to the subject. Christ himself had several discussions with Jewish leaders and in most cases was rejected. The time is near for a changing. A revelation.

It is interesting to note the thrift of the Hebrew language when compared to the Greek. For every Hebrew word, there are numerous Greek words evermore nuanced and descriptive. And the timing of these early translations is notable. Greek Language and Roman roads. Well....I'm beginning to ramble.

Suffice to say, I did not see the walls fall or the waters parted but I didn't need to. God reveals himself to whom He will at his pleasure and in his time. Praise God Almighty. I cannot deny Him. I will not Deny Him. I cannot be plucked from his hand.

If you need me, I'll be around, and If not....forgive my intrusion.

Posted by laramiebob on 7/16/2022 9:32:00 AM (view original):
So, do you folks believe that every word (story/fable) in The Bible is truth??
Every word Gods?

And if not, where do you get the hutzpah to declare your belief system the "correct" path and damn the rest of the non-believers and (other) believers alike to some "hell" as depicted in portions of the Bible?

I'm somewhat knowledgeable on this subject.
Tried to read the Bible straight thru once or twice. Couldn't succeed.
Too poorly written.

I really think a God could have done better.
And the full content of the Book, in its entirety is quite ridiculous. Silly even in some parts.
No doubt much of it was inspired.

Much of it, also, is fable. Some mans invention.
Likely meant to try and control others behavior. Particularly women!

IF'n you try and take the position that every word is Gods within The Bible...........then in my opinion you have some very difficult "splainin'" to do.

Last point.
To a Muslim. The Koran (sp?) is their Bible.
Does a Christian have the grace to consider that The Koran might be Gods word, too??
I certainly don't know any who do?

Why not?

Why do Christians think their God to be the ONE God, but other Faiths don't have the Spiritual purity to declare THEIR God the one God.
It should be obvious that EVERY Believer believes HIS/Her God to be the correct Creator and the proper point of worship.
It should also be obvious that us humans don't GET to KNOW or JUDGE other humans belief structures!!

The admonition within The Bible is quite clear. Much clearer than most of what you guys are arguing about!
Judge NOT, lest ye be judged.
What part of that do you NOT understand?

Good stuff here Bob.
I also struggle to come to a hard fast conclusion regarding your 1st question. It's probably why I can understand where folks like yourself are coming from a bit better than other Evangelicals.

I agree reading through the entirety of the Bible is a daunting task. The book of Numbers alone is enough to make you want to quit.

I would offer that it is quite rewarding however. Even if you skip over the most difficult chapters, keep plodding away with an open heart and mind with a desire to seek truth and I've absolutely no doubt whatsoever that He will reward you with nuggets of understanding that will forever change your outlook.

You are quite correct when you say if we hold the position that every word is "breathed by God", as it were, we are left with some very difficult passages to deal with.

I do have the grace to consider that other religious texts may be inspired, but you are correct the vast majority cannot consider such an idea.

I will say that what makes Christianity so very unique and incomparable to other "religions" is the emphasis put on that personal relationship with the Lord. This is an unprecedented concept.

Again I agree 100% that it should be obvious that every believer of other faiths should believe their God is the "correct" God. Otherwise why would they be a believer of that faith? It is indeed also obvious, to me at least, that I cannot know the heart of another human, therefore I try diligently not to proclaim myself as an arbiter of truth and dare not judge them.

Posted by DougOut on 7/16/2022 6:36:00 PM (view original):
I'm sorry for butting in.

Thank you for for your kind response.

I should make clear before I go, I am a believer Christ Jesus is God in the flesh sent by YEHWEH. I subscribe to the Trinity of Father-Son-Holy Spirit. Nothing can shake my belief, even persecution, because of the overwhelming proof in scripture, prophecy and the sciences which are in perfect harmony. Beyond that there is my personal experience of the Holy Baptism of the Spirit and a very intimate meeting with the Creator on an Island half way around the world almost 50 years ago. I know very up front and in your face personal that God exists. I should be dead now several times over. I have escaped and been delivered from perils and ordeals at the last minute for no apparent reason, over and over again. I don't believe in miracles. I partake in them by the will of God at his pleasure and for His Glory.

I understand all about the stumbling blocks for Jews. It has been well documented in both Old and New Testaments. The Holy scripture has devoted much time to the subject. Christ himself had several discussions with Jewish leaders and in most cases was rejected. The time is near for a changing. A revelation.

It is interesting to note the thrift of the Hebrew language when compared to the Greek. For every Hebrew word, there are numerous Greek words evermore nuanced and descriptive. And the timing of these early translations is notable. Greek Language and Roman roads. Well....I'm beginning to ramble.

Suffice to say, I did not see the walls fall or the waters parted but I didn't need to. God reveals himself to whom He will at his pleasure and in his time. Praise God Almighty. I cannot deny Him. I will not Deny Him. I cannot be plucked from his hand.

If you need me, I'll be around, and If not....forgive my intrusion.

Wonderful testimony there Doug.

I'll never be offended to see you post because your posts are always well reasoned.

I truly do appreciate your input and was only being facetious.

Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 6:39:00 PM (view original):
This is all still just chaff in the prime matter of Jesus in one's heart, or not. If one wants to poke holes, they'll find them. If one sincerely seeks, they find Him. Good luck with your Bible study here. We should be on the same team; it's tough enough addressing skeptics. I've done just fine in battlegrounds tougher than this where more of a kick in the rear is where God meets my harvest field. You have your way, God has his way me, he has a way for the 20-year office worker who never mentions Jesus until one day someone says yeah there's something about that gal I wonder what it is and she says let me tell you about my Friend. I'm not here to take quizzes scored on your criteria. I've got this. Do you. Or at least let's do it together. As much as I don't agree with Doug or lnf tactics, I don't get on them about it cuz maybe the one they hook is the crown they'll be able to lay at the foot of the alter on That Day. I'll have plenty.

Again, I was only teasing Doug when I offered a letter grade. It was a joke, which I thought was clear when I typed [:winking:].

I'm sorry to read that you choose not to answer, though I realize it wasn't an easy question.

Please know that while I will always challenge a brother in Christ to be more meek as commanded by our Lord, I do not hold anything against you.

If it hasn't been clear, I apologize and want to assure you that I do agree with most of the content of your posts, but I also recognize this thread may not be your cup of tea.

I am glad to read that you're successful in the harvest fields you work in daily. That's very commendable and admirable.

My Father was a Sunday School teacher for the latter part of his life. Taught a course on prophecy and the end times.
I still have all his notes and research.

But, one thing he commented to me on when I was still a young teen was the following:

Belief/Christianity/Gods Word must NOT/can NOT be contradictory to KNOWN Scientific fact.
For every miracle there MUST be logic.

The parting of the Red Sea does NOT bother me. I can imagine a bunch of possible "events' causing the waters to temporarily part long enough and then swallow up the pursuers. Tidal action for example connected to a tsunami for just one.

BUT, no way was Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ a virgin.
That is just physically impossible for HUMANS to do and Mary was decidedly human!

Christians do their cause more damage than they can possibly imagine when they insist that the rest of us MUST believe in fanatical ideas and silly fables posed as Historical fact.

Ussen doesn't need help from the "spiritually challenged" in revealing his truth to us.
It's apparent every sunrise, every sunset. Every rainstorm. Every DAY!

Revel in it. Enjoy it. Give THANKS for it and start LIVING and Loving and STOP judging and condemning those you don't understand.

The Hopi God, The Lakota God, The Apache God and your God are all the same.
And (again) I remind you God is LOVE!!
Not damnation and hellfire!
That concept is the basic scam of attempting to use fear and condemnation to control others thoughts!
It is not based on Christ's teachings!

Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 3:14:00 PM (view original):
Isaiah 7:14, hundreds of years before it happened :

“Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”

Do you know the why of the virgin birth's importance to Christianity ? Extremely significant, probably 2nd in line to the resurrection.

Do some homework, find out why. Then come back and tell me it's still a joke to believe it's reality.

I'm sorry, I had every intention of staying out of this thread - for reasons that have borne out in spades - but I have a hard time standing idly by and ignoring such statements as occur here.

You contend the two most important occurrences in the life of Christ, for Christians, are the virgin birth and the resurrection. However, the earliest church didn't even uniformly hold these beliefs. If you read the actual writing of the first-generation followers of Christ - that is, the disciples and apostles that actually knew Jesus and travelled with him during his life - they virtually never discuss either the virgin birth or the resurrection of the body. Even when reading the Bible that has been handed down to us now, assembled long after the death of Christ by evangelists with an agenda, it is clear that neither of these events is to be considered nearly as important to Christians as the crucifixion. You've even referred to this reality in other posts in this thread - through his death Christ accepted the punishment for the sins of humanity and made salvation possible.

The reality is that the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ as core facets of Christian doctrine arose for much the same reason as the dating of Christmas and Easter to existing pagan holidays. The polytheist pagans of the Mediterranean who became by far the largest audience for early evangelists believed that gods could only be born from gods. Dionysus/Bacchus, for example, had a mortal mother but was accepted not only as a god but an Olympian because his father was Zeus. Pagans could relate to someone born of a mortal mother being divine if you could establish that he didn't have a mortal father. The same goes for the resurrection - it resonates with existing pagan storylines. For early Christians, particularly those coming from a Jewish background, the spiritual resurrection was the most important thing. Pagans didn't see it that way. The gospels written for a pagan audience, and compiled into a version of the Bible designed with a pagan audience in mind, wound up relying heavily on these doctrines, but they really aren't crucial to the core message that Christ died for the forgiveness of sins, and that he is now with the Father, and that through belief in him people too can reach Heaven.

EDIT: I should clarify that I am not suggesting that you should not believe in the virgin birth or the physical resurrection. I certainly find it more pleasant to believe in the former, and I don't really have a strong opinion on the latter. The point is this: for the first followers of Christ - that is, the people who actually physically followed him around and listened to him speak - these were not priorities. They became priorities of the Church to make its message more appealing to potential converts. If those same doctrines now make the message less appealing, then for the same reason we should deemphasize them rather than trying to force them down people's throats.

BUT, no way was Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ a virgin.

That is just physically impossible for HUMANS to do and Mary was decidedly human!

Belief/Christianity/Gods Word must NOT/can NOT be contradictory to KNOWN Scientific fact.

For every miracle there MUST be logic.

Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 8:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bruceleefan on 7/16/2022 8:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 7:48:00 PM (view original):
FACT : (many many sources; do your homework)

Many more scientists quit that field upon converting to Christianity than Christians defecting to science.

The number increases 100X fold thru respondents in numerous industry when converting to Christianity who then struggle with job topics and tasks. Rare rare rare is the church attendee who decides to become a hooker errrmm pole dancer than the physician who abandons performing abortions upon conversion.

You're seriously back on here?

Just blatantly ignoring several tough questions, bowing out gracefully, and then THIS?
AND with the same flippant demeanor?

I thought I responded respectfully to your bowing out post. I didn't call you out and allowed you to save whatever face you could. But yet here you are again.

Your arrogance betrays you.

Every bible study has one, so yeah, why not here as well. You're know-it-all reminds me of someone else around these parts. You 'allow' me nothing. Your arrogance betrays you.

Touché.

14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,

16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

Posted by Mwett on 7/16/2022 8:50:00 PM (view original):
Tough questions AREN'T necessary to address when they're not too subtley veiled as attacks, rarerly entertained as hey is there a good answer for this that I might pause and actually consider Christ ? We talk tough topics all the time. I know a lot of the many layers and front lines of defense but for edification of believes and those on the threshold of a breakthrough. That's not found here.

It could go on to infinite and beyond, but not on my watch on their terms. Never with a hint of the prospect of Jesus in their heart, someone will someday ask hey was all that killing of lambs really necessary ? You'll give the proper answer and reasons why yes it was, and still they'll say they don't accept it nor our Jesus. I just eliminate the middleman explanation that typically leads to no good for the kingdom cause.

So basically you KNOW the legitimate question posed by someone isn't really sincere and therefore doesn't deserve an answer?

I'm TRYING DUDE.

Is it based on, I guess, previous dialogue with some of these folks?

Can you not understand that someone may not have ANY intention of considering Christ BECAUSE their sincere and honest questions were met with such smugness and dismissal?

That if they received a satisfactory answer from someone given in the spirit of love they may THEN be more inclined to consider Christ?

I can't repeat often enough that this hypocritical attitude will NEVER pierce their heart and most likely will only harden it further. It is EXACTLY what drives many folks to stay far far away from Evangelical Christians.

So your opinion is that your faith should not need to stand up to questioning?

I knew there was a reason I wanted no part of this.

FTR. In Vitro fertilization is a process used by couples who are having some physical difficulty conceiving NOT copulating.

It's a VERY difficult procedure for the woman to go thru.
I seriously DOUBT it is used without medical NEED.
Thus, it would NOT be used when the woman is a virgin.

But nice try using apples to an orange.

Simple question (for any or all here).

Is every word in The Bible to be defended as TRUTH ("Gospel truth" if you will).........every parable, every story, every WORD is Historical Fact, a TRUE representation...........every word FACT............ Is it??

And I'm not attempting to condemn it as a whole here. Not "throwing out the Baby with..." at all.
But you will NEVER convince me (or a whole lot of other folks) that methusalah lived to be 969 years NOR that Abraham was conceiving at 100.
It's BS!!!

I know a lot of the many layers and front lines of defense but for edification of believes and those on the threshold of a breakthrough. That's not found here.

So unless YOU deem that someone is "on the threshold of a breakthrough" They aren't worthy of your time?

Please point me to the Biblical verse which instructs us to make this judgement and declare which souls are worth our time.

Someone will someday ask hey was all that killing of lambs really necessary ? You'll give the proper answer and reasons why yes it was, and still they'll say they don't accept it nor our Jesus. I just eliminate the middleman explanation that typically leads to no good for the kingdom cause.

Just because someone doesn't immediately accept your explanation doesn't mean a seed wasn't planted. Many times we never see the fruit of our labor. You just keep plant those seeds and someone else may be called to water and nurture.

Your last sentence defies explanation.
You said "typically".

Typically? What about that atypical time?
Are you seriously okay letting that one soul perish because "typically" it's a waste of time?
My mind is blown.