Diagnostics for Leadoff Hitters II Topic

Less strikeouts don't increase run scoring.
Guaranteed. Willing to bet on it. Any takers?
2/21/2008 12:55 PM
Mike, since you hitched your wagon to this 14 K per game theory, you haven't been clear on what exactly you are arguing.
Care to elaborate?
2/21/2008 12:56 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008
Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008

mike isn't getting it. Majority is irrelevant here. All that matters is X number of Ks = Y number of runs/game. For mike to win, he needs the number of Ks to increase as the number of runs decreases. For example:
5 Ks = 8 rpg (runs per game)
6 Ks = 7.5 rpg
7 Ks = 7 rpg
etc.
I don't think it's going to work out that way, so he needs to argue to the extreme where it has a chance of working in his favor by throwing out a meaningless statistical measure for this study. Majority doesn't represent anything in this case. All that matters is the relationship between Ks and runs scored and how it changes as the number of Ks increases.



That's silly. Of course it's not going to be a sliding scale. The world doesn't work that way. Flip a coin 50 times. It's not coming up heads 25 times even though, statistically speaking, that's the probability.

But, if out are outs, an extreme number of the ones I think are worse shouldn't alter the runs scored.
But if the sample size is big enough, it will be pretty close. You need to stop giving the hitter all the credit for the strikeout. The pitcher has something to do with it as well. More often than not, if a pitcher strikes out 14, they probably had a pretty good game, which is going to keep scoring down by nature. If they only struck out 4, they probably didn't pitch so well, which will lead to more runs. this isn't rocket science.

Is an out an out? In the big scheme of things and in moderation, yes, it is. In the context of a moment however, an out isn't necessarily an out. Use mike's coin flipping anaolgy here. Most of the time the out type makes no difference. A few times it will, but the bigger the sample size, the less likely it is to matter.
2/21/2008 12:57 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008

If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average.
Guaranteed. Willing to bet on it. Any takers?
I already showed you examples of teams scoring well above league average and striking out 14 or more times.

Do I win the bet?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI200704240.shtml
2/21/2008 12:57 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By _nuke_ on 2/21/2008
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008

If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average.
Guaranteed. Willing to bet on it. Any takers?
I already showed you examples of teams scoring well above league average and striking out 14 or more times.

Do I win the bet?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI200704240.shtml


2 of 74 isn't a majority. We can work it either way. Average runs or individually(majority wins). Whichever works for you.

How much?

2/21/2008 1:00 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008

Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008

mike isn't getting it. Majority is irrelevant here. All that matters is X number of Ks = Y number of runs/game. For mike to win, he needs the number of Ks to increase as the number of runs decreases. For example:
5 Ks = 8 rpg (runs per game)
6 Ks = 7.5 rpg
7 Ks = 7 rpg
etc.
I don't think it's going to work out that way, so he needs to argue to the extreme where it has a chance of working in his favor by throwing out a meaningless statistical measure for this study. Majority doesn't represent anything in this case. All that matters is the relationship between Ks and runs scored and how it changes as the number of Ks increases.



That's silly. Of course it's not going to be a sliding scale. The world doesn't work that way. Flip a coin 50 times. It's not coming up heads 25 times even though, statistically speaking, that's the probability.

But, if out are outs, an extreme number of the ones I think are worse shouldn't alter the runs scored.
But if the sample size is big enough, it will be pretty close. You need to stop giving the hitter all the credit for the strikeout. The pitcher has something to do with it as well. More often than not, if a pitcher strikes out 14, they probably had a pretty good game, which is going to keep scoring down by nature. If they only struck out 4, they probably didn't pitch so well, which will lead to more runs. this isn't rocket science.

Is an out an out? In the big scheme of things and in moderation, yes, it is. In the context of a moment however, an out isn't necessarily an out. Use mike's coin flipping anaolgy here. Most of the time the out type makes no difference. A few times it will, but the bigger the sample size, the less likely it is to matter.



Can a pitcher induce 14 ground/fly outs and have a good game? I'm willing to wager that he can.

Look up all the no-hitters in MLB history. Tell me how many included 14 strikeouts.
2/21/2008 1:01 PM
Damn, do you know how to read? Quit making things up and respond to what is actually said. Nowhere did I say the only way a pitcher could pitch good was to K 14. I lived in Chicago and saw Maddux for years.
2/21/2008 1:03 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008
But if the sample size is big enough, it will be pretty close. You need to stop giving the hitter all the credit for the strikeout. The pitcher has something to do with it as well. More often than not, if a pitcher strikes out 14, they probably had a pretty good game, which is going to keep scoring down by nature. If they only struck out 4, they probably didn't pitch so well, which will lead to more runs. this isn't rocket science.
Is an out an out? In the big scheme of things and in moderation, yes, it is. In the context of a moment however, an out isn't necessarily an out. Use mike's coin flipping anaolgy here. Most of the time the out type makes no difference. A few times it will, but the bigger the sample size, the less likely it is to matter.

2/21/2008 1:04 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008
Quote: Originally Posted By _nuke_ on 2/21/2008

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008

If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average.
Guaranteed. Willing to bet on it. Any takers?
I already showed you examples of teams scoring well above league average and striking out 14 or more times.

Do I win the bet?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI200704240.shtml



2 of 74 isn't a majority. We can work it either way. Average runs or individually(majority wins). Whichever works for you.

How much?

You said it was guaranteed. "If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average. Guranteed."

I showed you a team that did score more than league average. I win.

2/21/2008 1:06 PM
The league average for whiffs was 6.76 per game.
Of the top 40 qualifiers for the ERA title(and the only pitchers below 4), 14 struck out less than the league average. Were they not "good" pitchers?
2/21/2008 1:10 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By _nuke_ on 2/21/2008
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008

Quote: Originally Posted By _nuke_ on 2/21/2008

Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008

If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average.
Guaranteed. Willing to bet on it. Any takers?
I already showed you examples of teams scoring well above league average and striking out 14 or more times.

Do I win the bet?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI200704240.shtml



2 of 74 isn't a majority. We can work it either way. Average runs or individually(majority wins). Whichever works for you.

How much?

You said it was guaranteed. "If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average. Guranteed."

I showed you a team that did score more than league average. I win.



Yeah, but you didn't bet anything. You should have made the bet, then gloated.
2/21/2008 1:11 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By MikeT23 on 2/21/2008
The league average for whiffs was 6.76 per game.
Of the top 40 qualifiers for the ERA title(and the only pitchers below 4), 14 struck out less than the league average. Were they not "good" pitchers?
What the hell are you babbling about?
2/21/2008 1:12 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008
Damn, do you know how to read? Quit making things up and respond to what is actually said. Nowhere did I say the only way a pitcher could pitch good was to K 14. I lived in Chicago and saw Maddux for years.


We've been thru this before. You're too long-winded for the internet. Get to the point when you post.
2/21/2008 1:12 PM
You said it was guaranteed. "If 50% or more of the outs are strikeouts, a team will score less than the league average. Guranteed."

I showed you a team that did score more than league average. I win.

2/21/2008 1:13 PM
Allow me to simplify it even more for you. Keep in ming when I say "a pretty good game" I'm referring to an individual game.

Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008



Quote: Originally Posted By hartjh14 on 2/21/2008

More often than not, if a pitcher strikes out 14, they probably had a pretty good game, which is going to keep scoring down by nature. If they only struck out 4, they probably didn't pitch so well, which will lead to more runs.
2/21/2008 1:14 PM
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Diagnostics for Leadoff Hitters II Topic

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