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jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By jbasnight on 11/06/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
But you are wrong. You are saying that the guy that destroyed the A+ prestige should have the better resume? You are arguing against yourself here aren't you?
Not at all. What I'm saying is this: If you are going to count only the past four seasons in the hiring decision, then you should also count the prestige of a coach's current school as a way to take into account their prior history.

That doesn't make any sense. Just because you were at a D+ and he was at an A+ does not mean that his past resume is that much better then your past resume
Of course it doesn't always mean that. But there's an awfully high likelihood it does. You can race through D3 and D2 in a small number of seasons and get a D-rated D1 team. It's not that tough to improve them to B- from there. Are you seriously making the case that you can get a team to A+ (or even A) without building a better resume than that?
11/6/2009 11:18 AM
zhawks
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So we agree then. Since it does not mean 100% anything, it doesn't deserve a place in the formula.
11/6/2009 11:26 AM
jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
So we agree then. Since it does not mean 100% anything, it doesn't deserve a place in the formula.

If that's the logical test you're going to use, I challenge you to find anything to actually put in the forumla.
11/6/2009 11:27 AM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By jbasnight on 11/06/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009

So we agree then. Since it does not mean 100% anything, it doesn't deserve a place in the formula.

If that's the logical test you're going to use, I challenge you to find anything to actually put in the forumla


I have 401 wins in Phelan. I have won 31 National Tourney games. I have 7 Conference Tourney Titles and 1 National Title.

Are those not 100% sound facts?
11/6/2009 11:43 AM
jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/06/2009
jbas, that's flawed logic.

You're taking a bad system and just introducing another bad element to it.

Well, I'm trying to balance things out. I certainly agree the best solution is to just look at the whole resume. Of course, it wouldn't be hard to point out a flaw or two in doing it that way either.

That doesn't solve anything, or necessarily make anything better.

Agree with the 'solve' part.

Your argument is totally valid if what you're saying is, "Let's expand it beyond four seasons", but to simply factor in team prestige, when we've already shown how badly flawed/misleading that can be, does not make the situation any better. And in many cases it could make it worse.

I dunno. Let's say Ben Howland goes through a rough stretch over the next few years at UCLA and misses the NCAAs a couple of times. Meanwhile, Isiah Thomas wins the Sun Belt four times, and makes the Sweet 16 in year 4. If they both went after the Georgia job at that point, I think we could agree that in real life Howland would probably still get it. We could further agree that in HD, Isiah would almost certainly get it.

My point, and it goes no further than this, is that you could find some middle ground by taking into account at some level the relative prestiges of UCLA and FIU. I'm not saying it should be the driving factor. But to say it shouldn't be taken at all into account seems to me too extreme a view.
11/6/2009 11:48 AM
jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By jbasnight on 11/06/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009

So we agree then. Since it does not mean 100% anything, it doesn't deserve a place in the formula.

If that's the logical test you're going to use, I challenge you to find anything to actually put in the forumla.



I have 401 wins in Phelan. I have won 31 National Tourney games. I have 7 Conference Tourney Titles and 1 National Title.

Are those not 100% sound facts?
Sure. And every single one of them has at least one flaw you could point out:

Total wins? Well, how tough have you scheduled?

Tourney wins? NT titles? Relies on matchups and how you're seeded. We all know how flawed the seeding process is.

CT titles? How tough is your conference?

Any single factor can be isolated and found not 100% reliable. But all of the things you mentioned should certainly be taken into account. My point about prestige is that it's too extreme to say that because there are some flaws it shouldn't be used at all.
11/6/2009 11:59 AM
brianp87
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I dont mind it being the last four seasons. It htne gives us guys at a lower level d1 school a shot to get the better job if we have one or two good seasons
11/6/2009 12:03 PM
zhawks
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jbas, you are wrong. A win is a win. You can not make the argument that you are trying to make. Your current schools prestige does not 100% mean anything. I won 401 games, that does mean 100% that I won 401 games.
11/6/2009 12:10 PM
dalter
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jbas, the bottom line is that we all agree the current method is flawed, but you're touting a poor solution/fix.
11/6/2009 12:33 PM
jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009jbas, you are wrong. A win is a win. You can not make the argument that you are trying to make. Your current schools prestige does not 100% mean anything. I won 401 games, that does mean 100% that I won 401 games
I have 508 wins in tark. Shall we assume I am a 25% better coach than you are?
11/6/2009 12:56 PM
zhawks
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Quote: Originally Posted By jbasnight on 11/06/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
jbas, you are wrong. A win is a win. You can not make the argument that you are trying to make. Your current schools prestige does not 100% mean anything. I won 401 games, that does mean 100% that I won 401 games.
I have 508 wins in tark. Shall we assume I am a 25% better coach than you are?
Your argument is getting pretty ridiculous at this point.
11/6/2009 12:58 PM
shagnew13
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I agree with you Jbas, I think prestige should have somewhat of a factor in the decision, albeit not the driving force. You were good enough in the last 4 seasons to push your prestige from a D- to a B, should count for something. I know the current way is flawed, and until it is figured out, they will continue to only use the last 4 seasons as a way to get a job. But deep down I believe prestige should be figured in somehow
11/6/2009 1:06 PM
jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By dalter on 11/06/2009
jbas, the bottom line is that we all agree the current method is flawed, but you're touting a poor solution/fix.

Yes, we've certainly gotten far afield. Our argument boils down to this: You contend that because team prestige has flaws, it should not be used at all in the job selection process. I'm claiming that while it is flawed, it does have some informational value in many, if not in most cases.

But regardless, I am not proposing that as a fix. If HD was going to make any effort in that direction, we're in agreement--they should just start using the whole resume.
11/6/2009 1:14 PM
jbasnight
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Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By jbasnight on 11/06/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 11/06/2009
jbas, you are wrong. A win is a win. You can not make the argument that you are trying to make. Your current schools prestige does not 100% mean anything. I won 401 games, that does mean 100% that I won 401 games.
I have 508 wins in tark. Shall we assume I am a 25% better coach than you are?
Your argument is getting pretty ridiculous at this point.
The point, z, is that of course we can't make that assumption. Total wins by itself tells us nothing. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be included in the mosaic of information you use in the decision process. To say that any one factor has to be 100% unassailable to be worthy of inclusion is to make a fallacious argument.
11/6/2009 1:17 PM
zhawks
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I never said total wins by itself meant anything. Actually I think I have said in other threads that mearly using wins to decide who was the best coach was a foolish idea. Using your current or former teams prestige is also.
11/6/2009 1:23 PM
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