Quote: Originally Posted By hitman1979 on 1/19/2010My understanding is that is poaching when a school comes in on a recruit late who was already considering someone else. Whether there is anything wrong with that is to debate, but whether it exists, or there is "such thing as" poaching, is not.

Thre is no debate, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Well, I submit that it's discourteous and not altogether sportsmanlike If you either disagree or don't think those things matter then I suppose there is no debate.

Quote: Originally Posted By ellisonatg on 1/19/2010
Well, I submit that it's discourteous and not altogether sportsmanlike If you either disagree or don't think those things matter then I suppose there is no debate.

In much the same way that changing one's settings or lineups when facing an opponent is discourteous and not altogether sportsmanlike.

Quote: Originally Posted By mullycj on 1/18/2010
is this thread a practical joke?

I don't think so, after reading the 3 pages of posts on the phalen coaches corner, there is some very sound recruiting advice buried in the text.

I feel major d1 recruiting is essentially setup to poach, with the 6 scholy A+ schools often recruiting 4 guys, keeping money to ward off poachers (as well as 4 schly B schools doing the same thing as best they can), if none comes knocking, they use the extra to find another guy late, sometimes, this may even cause a second poach, from the attacked school who chooses not to battle, or from someone who 'reads' the wounded schools delimna and weakened state, and swoops in for the kill.

I do not see this going away anytime soon, based on what I know about the direction the game is headed.

Anyone feel like the "interest" should be a little bit more (I say this without knowing exactly how much it is now)?

It seems to me like recruiting a kid in real life early gives a pretty solid advantage, at least moreso than in WIS.

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Quote: Originally Posted By isack24 on 1/19/2010
Anyone feel like the "interest" should be a little bit more (I say this without knowing exactly how much it is now)?

It seems to me like recruiting a kid in real life early gives a pretty solid advantage, at least moreso than in WIS.

I think there is a lot more to it then just the credit that is received. If UNC or Duke called almost any recruit the kid would listen, regardless of how long another school had been recruiting him. I don't think that saying "IRL talking to a recruit for a long period is worth more then in HD" is a correct statement.

Quote: Originally Posted By ellisonatg on 1/19/2010Well, I submit that it's discourteous and not altogether sportsmanlike If you either disagree or don't think those things matter then I suppose there is no debate

How is it discourteous or unsportsmanlike? So Team A recruits a player from the start, Team B looks at several SGs but realizes after a couple of recruiting attempts that he doesn't have much chance of signing those players. He then sees a 3rd SG that he likes but he's being recruited by Team A, he also notices that Team A is at a distance disadvantage and may have overextended themselves. Team B goes after their 3rd choice because he whiffed on the 1st two, how is there anything wrong with that?

I think people have in their minds that most schools that come in later on a recruit are watching that guy all along, and strategically waiting until the last minute to come in. While that may happen, the FAR more likely scenario is what is described above. Teams sometimes have to work their way down a list. Recruiting is dynamic and not everything occurs in the first day. In situation like that, I don't see any semi-intelligent viewpoint that would say it's somehow unsportsmanlike or discourteous.

Quote: Originally Posted By zhawks on 1/19/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By isack24 on 1/19/2010

Anyone feel like the "interest" should be a little bit more (I say this without knowing exactly how much it is now)?

It seems to me like recruiting a kid in real life early gives a pretty solid advantage, at least moreso than in WIS.

I think there is a lot more to it then just the credit that is received. If UNC or Duke called almost any recruit the kid would listen, regardless of how long another school had been recruiting him. I don't think that saying "IRL talking to a recruit for a long period is worth more then in HD" is a correct statement.

I agree, although I think you took the bolded statement a little out of context. It's always recruit and situation-specific, so in that respect, yeah, you're right.

I disagree about the "UNC and Duke" thing. Sometimes that might be true, sometimes not, but those teams are often on the guys that they want since 8th grade, so it's tough to say that and back it up.

I guess I'm first wondering how much that "interest" is worth, and if people think it should be worth more. You can say that "if UNC called, that would be the end of it," but I disagree. If, for example, a second-tier school has been all over a kid for two years, he has built great relationships with them, and really likes the program, I'm not sure he jumps at UNC just because they are UNC. Especially if the second tier school is still on TV, still plays in the tourney, etc. Your point is even less valid in D2/D3 where being drafted simply isn't an issue and it's more about location and relationships.

Quote: Originally Posted By cmthieme on 1/19/2010
I think people have in their minds that most schools that come in later on a recruit are watching that guy all along, and strategically waiting until the last minute to come in. While that may happen, the FAR more likely scenario is what is described above. Teams sometimes have to work their way down a list. Recruiting is dynamic and not everything occurs in the first day. In situation like that, I don't see any semi-intelligent viewpoint that would say it's somehow unsportsmanlike or discourteous.

Agreed.

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Quote: Originally Posted By isack24 on 1/19/2010
I agree, although I think you took the bolded statement a little out of context. It's always recruit and situation-specific, so in that respect, yeah, you're right. Right and I wasn't meaning to say that that is what you had said, sorry if it came off that way, I just was making the point that that likely isn't true.

I disagree about the "UNC and Duke" thing. Sometimes that might be true, sometimes not, but those teams are often on the guys that they want since 8th grade, so it's tough to say that and back it up. Agreed, again I didn't say it would always happen but I think that when we discuss topics like these the vast majority that want change want it to be "I have been on the guy since day 1. You now have to 3x my recruiting effort to beat me" When I think that is a very drastic change. My point is, is it perfect? I guess we really don't know, likely it could be looked at but it isn't bad by any means. Even if it was increased slightly it wouldn't really change anything. The recruiting considering credit is not the heart of the problem here, the heart of the problem is that many coaches, when they lose recruits, get mad and blame it on the CC not being worth enough, when in most situations the lost recruit was the fault of the coach not properly recruiting. I have done it myself and had it done to me, you can keep the 'poachers' away by being a solid recruiter.

I guess I'm first wondering how much that "interest" is worth, and if people think it should be worth more. You can say that "if UNC called, that would be the end of it," but I disagree. If, for example, a second-tier school has been all over a kid for two years, he has built great relationships with them, and really likes the program, I'm not sure he jumps at UNC just because they are UNC. Especially if the second tier school is still on TV, still plays in the tourney, etc. Your point is even less valid in D2/D3 where being drafted simply isn't an issue and it's more about location and relationships. I don't believe I ever said that, and if I did that was not intended. But to say that a kid wouldn't entertain UNC IRL because SIU had been on him since day 1 is not true, I don't mean to say that every kid will always 100% of the time sign with the higher prestige school, but that is how it works much of the time. Also there are many many many other factors in recruiting IRL that are not part of HD, once you take those parts out (liking a coach, liking a campus, being close so your parents can come to your games... and so on) and think about RL recruiting in terms of HD (basically prestige and a small amount of coach success, maybe favorite school / distance-both in terms of recruiting budget and recruit preference), if that was all that was available for a recruit to make a choice IRL then you would see, more often then not, how HD works.

The fact is that in HD smaller schools have a much better ability to recruit top talent then they do IRL.

You're absolutely right zhawks, about all of that.

I don't know how much the "interest" makes a difference, and maybe it's fine. I suppose I'm just thinking about ways to reward getting on a kid early, because I think that's probably pretty important in the recruitign process.

From personal experience, I was accused of "poaching" once when I showed up late on a recruit...however, I had been putting money into the recruit from minute one, it just took more of an effort than I had anticipated to get him to start considering...

I knew the team he was considering had only one open scholarship, so I knew the rough amount of cash he had on hand and didn't want to overspend as I was in a skirmish over another player (I had 4 open scholarships) but every cycle that I thought I should have been considered...I wasn't. Probably had to overcome promises and the considering credit he had already received.



On the flip side I have been torn apart by the SEC in Knight on numerous occasions as I get into a recruiting battle with one of them and the others smell blood and jump in. It's all good, they are playing golf and we're still playing hoops! (Albeit the PI) SO... BITE ME, SEC!



There really is no substitute for experience in Division I recruiting, you have to be vigilant, and aware of what all the schools in your area are up to. Know what battles you can win, and know when to walk way. Be prepared to lose some close fights and take a walk on or two on. Know when you can afford to have an ineligible rostered and when you can not. Learn to use promises correctly (Do I want this player bad enough to start him and possibly lose some games this season because of it?) etc...

Above all you must be conservative with cash, just because it seems like you have alot doesn't mean you do :p