Fielding Development (in Alt. Position) Topic

tecwrg
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Sox,

So are you saying that if you have a prospect whose defensive ratings project (for example) to 80/85/85/85, that he will develop EXACTLY THE SAME if you play him for four minor league seasons at 1B as opposed to playing him at SS?
3/1/2010 10:14 AM
shobob
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You have to wonder how a premier defensive SS prospect would turn out if you played him at 1B his whole minor league career. Anyone care to try it?
3/1/2010 10:15 AM
MikeT23
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Here's my logic:

I have no SS or pitching prospects in LoA. So, because of that, wouldn't it be "best" to play my 3B prospect at SS so he'll play the more trying position and thus develop "better"? Or a 1B prospect at SS?

It makes no sense that the developers would encourage me to that.
3/1/2010 10:20 AM
soxfan121
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Quote: Originally posted by tecwrg on 3/01/2010Sox,So are you saying that if you have a prospect whose defensive ratings project (for example) to 80/85/85/85, that he will develop EXACTLY THE SAME if you play him for four minor league seasons at 1B as opposed to playing him at SS?

Nope. And I'm presuming some basic knowledge of the defensive spectrum.

I have two "SS" on a Hi-A team; one has a bit better glove and AA, the other has better range and arm strength. I just got done playing SS #1 at SS, and SS #2 at 3b all season, with a ~50 FI. Makeup is about the same (~5 difference) - mid-70s.

SS #1 improved 1 more rating point, on the season, in the glove and AA categories, than did SS #2.

I am NOT advocating playing a SS at 1b for 4 minor league seasons and expecting, that because he played, that he'll develop as much as he could playing SS.

But let's move away from SS - which, like CF and C, are unique defensive positions.

Say you have two 60-50-60-50 18 year olds in rookie ball. One "projects" to 70-78-70-74, the other to 70-76-70-76. Does it matter whether this player is listed at 2b? 3b? Will his development be "hurt" if he's listed at 3b instead of 2b? Or will it matter more that he plays, gets decent coaching, and has good makeup/health/durability?
3/1/2010 10:26 AM
MikeT23
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I'll use this guy as an example of why it's all speculation:

http://www.whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx?pid=2406660

He was signed as a cheap IFA based on his fielding. He was projected to be a SS. His current ratings, at signing, indicated that he had a chance. Because he can't hit, he has played less than half of his professional innings at SS. But he has gotten sufficient playing team. He's never going to be a BL SS. Were my projections wrong? Of course they were. But was his development in the field slowed because he's played everywhere? Maybe.
3/1/2010 11:01 AM
ct_duck
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Quote: Originally Posted By soxfan121 on 3/01/2010Even $20M in advance scouting yields projected ratings that are not 100% trustworthy. And even veteran owners, who understand The_Jester, can be wrong about a player's ceiling.

Perhaps it's more fair to say: base your decisions, 99% of the time, on current ratings. Projected ratings can also be termed "pie-in-the-sky ratings" and they are most often inaccurate.

If there is one thing I see trip up new owners more than any other, it's reliance on projected ratings. And while they can give a n00b that "rough idea", it's often the wrong, future-damaging idea.




Don't you guys think that while players may never reach their cielings, projections are a decent way to eveluate guys relative to each other in terms of service years. ie. if you have two players with relatively equal service time, you can use their projections relative to each other to judge which will be the better player? I can understand not basing everything on projections when trading an established player for a prospect.
3/1/2010 11:02 AM
tecwrg
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Quote: Originally Posted By soxfan121 on 3/01/2010

Quote: Originally posted by tecwrg on 3/01/2010

Sox,

So are you saying that if you have a prospect whose defensive ratings project (for example) to 80/85/85/85, that he will develop EXACTLY THE SAME if you play him for four minor league seasons at 1B as opposed to playing him at SS?

Nope. And I'm presuming some basic knowledge of the defensive spectrum.

I have two "SS" on a Hi-A team; one has a bit better glove and AA, the other has better range & arm strength. I just got done playing SS #1 at SS, and SS #2 at 3b all season, with a ~50 FI. Makeup is about the same (~5 difference) - mid-70s.

SS #1 improved 1 more rating point, on the season, in the glove & AA categories, than did SS #2.

I am NOT advocating playing a SS at 1b for 4 minor league seasons and expecting, that because he played, that he'll develop as much as he could playing SS.

But let's move away from SS - which, like CF and C, are unique defensive positions.

Say you have two 60-50-60-50 18 year olds in rookie ball. One "projects" to 70-78-70-74, the other to 70-76-70-76. Does it matter whether this player is listed at 2b? 3b? Will his development be "hurt" if he's listed at 3b instead of 2b? Or will it matter more that he plays, gets decent coaching, and has good makeup/health/durability?
Wait a sec.

Is your argument less about where he plays as it is about what his listed primary position is?

Because based on your example of your two HiA SS's, the one who played at SS developed slightly more than the one who played at 3B. Which (a) should be expected, according to both common sense and what WIS has stated, (b) is what the original post was asking, and (c) is what your first response seemed to indicate was not necessarily the case.
3/1/2010 11:24 AM
MikeT23
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I didn't even try to decipher what he now means. He's all over the friggin' place.
3/1/2010 11:27 AM
soxfan121
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Quote: Originally posted by tecwrg on 3/01/2010[/QUOTE]Wait a sec.Is your argument less about where he plays as it is about what his listed primary position is?Because based on your example of your two HiA SS's, the one who played at SS developed slightly more than the one who played at 3B.  Which (a) should be expected, according to both common sense and what WIS has stated, (b) is what the original post was asking, and (c) is what your first response seemed to indicate was not necessarily the case.
Yes, tec.

I didn't understand the original question....so I speculated. And I'm gonna need a flowchart or pie graph or something to decipher what opie was asking about in his second question.

I keep reading the questions as "does assigning a primary position based on ratings hurt a player's development?" and the answer to that is, no. If you assign a guy to be a "primary" 2b, so that he plays 2b when you hit the recs button, it doesn't cripple his potential development as a SS.

Frankly, I don't think anyone has any hard data on whether changing a "primary position" retards a player's defensive development.
3/1/2010 12:31 PM
tecwrg
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His question had to do with where a minor leaguer plays, with respect to his projected ratings and development towards those ratings. I just re-read his two posts. I thought they were pretty clear. I'm not sure how you were getting confused or hung up on listed primary position, or where that even came into play in either of his posts.

FYI . . . I'm pretty confident (99.999% sure) that the listed position has zero impact on performance or development.

EDIT: OK, I do see now his post from 10:35am today where he mentions setting the primary position. Still, I think sox's confusion was about the point of the opie's question, which really was "would a player's development be hindered if they play at a position other than what their projected defensive ratings are best suited for".
3/1/2010 12:59 PM
MikeT23
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The listed position only plays into D-rec and rest. And since they'll stick a C at SS if no one else is available, I'm not sure it matters at all.
3/1/2010 1:03 PM
toddcommish
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I seem to remember some developer chat where they said that a player's fielding development is based on WHERE the player plays his innings.

That means if you have two players with IDENTICAL current and projected fielding/makeup ratings, and played one at SS and one at LF for the exact same number of innings and PA, the one playing SS would see greater increases in fielding ratings.
3/1/2010 1:14 PM
schuyler101
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Quote: Originally posted by toddcommish on 3/01/2010I seem to remember some developer chat where they said that a player's fielding development is based on WHERE the player plays his innings.That means if you have two players with IDENTICAL current and projected fielding/makeup ratings, and played one at SS and one at LF for the exact same number of innings and PA, the one playing SS would see greater increases in fielding ratings.

i remember reading the same thing...
3/2/2010 8:07 AM
MikeT23
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Yes, they've said that. I've seen nothing that would convince me that it's true. I posted a player earlier that I signed as a SS but played him all over(less than half his minor league innings at SS) and he didn't develop. I was sort of hoping someone would say "SEE????" so I could post this guy:

http://www.whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx?pid=2487564

Pretty much the same playing pattern. But he's developed into a SS just fine.
3/2/2010 8:13 AM
zbrent716
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Quote: Originally posted by MikeT23 on 3/02/2010Yes, they've said that.   I've seen nothing that would convince me that it's true.   I posted a player earlier that I signed as a SS but played him all over(less than half his minor league innings at SS) and he didn't develop.   I was sort of hoping someone would say "SEE????" so I could post this guy:http://www.whatifsports.com/HBD/Pages/Popups/PlayerProfile.aspx?pid=2487564Pretty much the same playing pattern.  But he's developed into a SS just fine.

I've had a similar experience trying the opposite thing. I have a guy who is a DH really (though some might play him at C) that has projections within shouting distance of a crappy 1B. I've playing him all over, but with the majority of his innings at 2B and haven't really seen any more fielding benefits than I'd have expected with him at DH.

Derrick Doster
3/2/2010 12:07 PM
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